Referee bashing-get it stopped!

[Big Red Keev]

52 minutes ago, LeeF said:

I’m not going to name specific names but the people on this forum who know me personally will vouch that I know a number of both past & present match officials and I can 100% guarantee that some would have liked to, in the past, respond to coaches unwarranted criticism but have not been allowed. 
 

Since nobody has spoken out it is reasonable to assume that permission has not been and probably never will be given.

With regards the uproar that is very simple. The bullies i.e. the coaches & players in these instances won’t like be on the receiving end of being shown that they are in the wrong and that they make substantially more errors per match than any match official. Errors that do cost matches

"Bullies" since when is criticism bullying? When is publicly disagreeing with someone bullying? You are conflating 2 things that aren't connected. Questioning somebody's ability to do something well is not a personal attack.

Everybody makes mistakes that is not in question, my argument is this group are apparently immune from public criticism, when everybody else connected to the game is not.

I don't care if a player makes 100 errors a game and a referee makes 1 its is utterly wrong that they cannot be public criticized for there 1 mistake or error.

If they are so weak as to not be able to face public scrutiny, then they are not fit to take charge of anything never mind professional athletes.

Nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise.

[WakefieldCityLoyal]

21 minutes ago, daz39 said:

There ya go, that's my point, judged him already before the game based on reputation and perception.

He could have the best game ever get everything 100% correct and your team could win 80-0 but you'd alrady decided 5-6 days before the game it was a negative?

Judged him in all the games he’s reffed us previous.  Wish he would have the best game ever and get everything 100% correct.  Us winning or losing doesn’t matter as long as the game is refereed correctly and consistently.

[GUBRATS]

18 minutes ago, Big Red Keev said:

"Bullies" since when is criticism bullying? When is publicly disagreeing with someone bullying? You are conflating 2 things that aren't connected. Questioning somebody's ability to do something well is not a personal attack.

Everybody makes mistakes that is not in question, my argument is this group are apparently immune from public criticism, when everybody else connected to the game is not.

I don't care if a player makes 100 errors a game and a referee makes 1 its is utterly wrong that they cannot be public criticized for there 1 mistake or error.

If they are so weak as to not be able to face public scrutiny, then they are not fit to take charge of anything never mind professional athletes.

Nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise.

I'd live with your opinion on this 

If the coaches and players didn't spend half the game deliberately trying to cheat 

The refs make mistakes ,they don't deliberately CHEAT , unlike the coaches who then complain when the refs pull them for it 

[LeeF]

22 minutes ago, Big Red Keev said:

"Bullies" since when is criticism bullying? When is publicly disagreeing with someone bullying? You are conflating 2 things that aren't connected. Questioning somebody's ability to do something well is not a personal attack.

Everybody makes mistakes that is not in question, my argument is this group are apparently immune from public criticism, when everybody else connected to the game is not.

I don't care if a player makes 100 errors a game and a referee makes 1 its is utterly wrong that they cannot be public criticized for there 1 mistake or error.

If they are so weak as to not be able to face public scrutiny, then they are not fit to take charge of anything never mind professional athletes.

Nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise.

Your attitude is best summed up by your last sentence.

Look up the definition of bullying especially in the workplace & apply it to the scenario and you will find that the coaches & players are bullying

If you actually bothered to read the full topic you will see that nobody is asking for zero criticism but just that match officials are treated with basic respect 

The current criticism is from a position of power and ignorance. Is that fair? 
 

BTW there is at least one grammatical mistake in your post. Is calling that out when the other words & grammar are correct being pedantic or fair?

[Northern Eel]

There's an elephant in the room. There are quite a number of fans who don't actually know the rules of the game. Indeed, when put alongside their rose tinted spectacles, they forge a sense of misfortune that their team lost because the rules of the game were enforced, rather than the ones that suited their team. 

I'd challenge you all to go to a game as a neutral and test the response of the crowd to decisions. It will not take long at all to feel the need to laugh at some of the ridiculous interpretations fans put on the referee's judgements. 

I think some fans are conditioned to be disagreeable with the in-the-moment calls made on the pitch if they go against their team. There's nothing wrong at all with that, as the groans are part of the entertaining pantomime of pseudo-displeasure. But why feel the need to shout foul abuse at the ref?

[LeeF]

I’ve just seen on Facebook one of the tries that Leeds scored and the attempted tackling by Salford players (yes plural) was shocking. A lot worse than any perceived refereeing mistake

Why didn’t Watson call this out and have a go at the players concerned?

[meast]

12 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m not sure why referees should be absolved of any criticism, we as fans are the first to criticise player performances and coaching performances, so questioning the performance of a referee is no different and is fine with me. It’s when it gets personal and is just vitriolic abuse that it’s completely wrong, much like the comment on the OP, that’s just abuse, that’s not criticism, it’s just a personal attack on someone. 

I wasn't talking about criticism per se, no one is immune from criticism, my OP was regarding the blaming of the referee's for defeats, abuse of the officials, and the claims they are cheats and don't like particular clubs, we can all make mistakes and errors, we should, as a sport, accept that sometimes a referee makes errors and that they can sometimes have a bad game, it doesn't make them a cheat though, we need to shift the mindset away from using the referee as a scapegoat for defeats.

[meast]

11 hours ago, Bearman said:

The broadcasters do not help. I never watch union but when I did I was struck by the difference Sky commentators made when commentating on rugby games. Eddie and Stevo would be banging on about mistakes by officials ( often they were right) but similar mistakes were never pointed out by their union colleagues. They just accepted that the officials "we're always right".

To be fair Sky do not highlight those mistakes quite as often as they once did. I do not know how that compares these days as as I say I do not watch union.

The RFL could make a big start by highlighting the old adage.

Rule 1 The referee is always right.

Rule 2 Even if he mistakes an error, Rule 1 applies.

Rule 3 Any other comments are bringing the game into disrepute.

Sky are indeed, a big player in this, they highlighted every slightly controversial decision and banged on about it for ages, sometimes to the detriment of everything that happened in the game.

Fans picked up on this and believed that the referee cost them the game and so it became the norm.

Thankfully sky have seemingly gone past this now and they now move on pretty quickly in commentary and replays, but the damage is done.

[Northern Eel]

12 minutes ago, meast said:

Sky are indeed, a big player in this, they highlighted every slightly controversial decision and banged on about it for ages, sometimes to the detriment of everything that happened in the game.

Fans picked up on this and believed that the referee cost them the game and so it became the norm.

Thankfully sky have seemingly gone past this now and they now move on pretty quickly in commentary and replays, but the damage is done.

I've found generally that Aussie commentaries move on very quickly from dodgy calls, focusing instead on the game unfolding. It is so acute a difference that I am sometimes left wondering if they even saw the infringements.

[meast]

2 hours ago, Northern Eel said:

There's an elephant in the room. There are quite a number of fans who don't actually know the rules of the game. Indeed, when put alongside their rose tinted spectacles, they forge a sense of misfortune that their team lost because the rules of the game were enforced, rather than the ones that suited their team. 

I'd challenge you all to go to a game as a neutral and test the response of the crowd to decisions. It will not take long at all to feel the need to laugh at some of the ridiculous interpretations fans put on the referee's judgements. 

I think some fans are conditioned to be disagreeable with the in-the-moment calls made on the pitch if they go against their team. There's nothing wrong at all with that, as the groans are part of the entertaining pantomime of pseudo-displeasure. But why feel the need to shout foul abuse at the ref?

Which i touched upon on my OP, by all means disagree with decisions during the game, that's the nature of the game, but accept that a referee made every decision in good faith and by what he saw, and accept that if your team lost it was because your team wasn't good enough to win 

By all means involve the referee as a pantomime villain character during the game, but leave the abuse at home, before, during and after the game.

[meast]

15 minutes ago, Northern Eel said:

I've found generally that Aussie commentaries move on very quickly from dodgy calls, focusing instead on the game unfolding. It is so acute a difference that I am sometimes left wondering if they even saw the infringements.

Most of the time it's barely even mentioned, yet on sky they show replay after replay and have the entire broadcasting team have their say on it, all while play is continuing!

[unapologetic pedant]

12 hours ago, Northern Eel said:

There's an elephant in the room. There are quite a number of fans who don't actually know the rules of the game. Indeed, when put alongside their rose tinted spectacles, they forge a sense of misfortune that their team lost because the rules of the game were enforced, rather than the ones that suited their team. 

I'd challenge you all to go to a game as a neutral and test the response of the crowd to decisions. It will not take long at all to feel the need to laugh at some of the ridiculous interpretations fans put on the referee's judgements. 

I think some fans are conditioned to be disagreeable with the in-the-moment calls made on the pitch if they go against their team. There's nothing wrong at all with that, as the groans are part of the entertaining pantomime of pseudo-displeasure. But why feel the need to shout foul abuse at the ref?

More damaging than ignorance of the rules is the lack of thought over how the rules should be applied in the best interests of the game. The perfect example is passing. A flat pass is legal, yet the crowd will shout "forward" and the commentator will say "suspiciously forward". Any level pass might be slightly forward, might be slightly backward, it`s impossible to say with certainty, so which way do you go? If we regard every pass as guilty till proven innocent how do you make a short pass go clearly backwards? Hence one means of opening up a defence is lost .A simplistic, right or wrong, application of the rules diminishes the game. Our officials are hung out to dry by the absence of clear guidelines about things like this. Last year I heard a podcast on the NRL website with Gavin and Kasey Badger where they expressed frustration at the misunderstanding in the crowds and media of why some ruck penalties are given and others not, where it`s more about body positions at the completion of the tackle rather than simple length of time in the tackle. Our officials should do more of this. Rather than go all "refs are only human" defensive, they should go on the media and set out how and why the rules are applied. In particular, acknowledge that a call can be literally inaccurate, but still consistent with an intelligent application of the benefit of the doubt.

[JohnM]

13 hours ago, meast said:

Sky are indeed, a big player in this, they highlighted every slightly controversial decision and banged on about it for ages, sometimes to the detriment of everything that happened in the game.

Fans picked up on this and believed that the referee cost them the game and so it became the norm.

Thankfully sky have seemingly gone past this now and they now move on pretty quickly in commentary and replays, but the damage is done.

Yes indeed. But the problem pre-dates Sky. Many are the times that Eric Clay deliberately conspired to deprive Swinton of rightful victories. I know, because I was there.

[Big Red Keev]

18 hours ago, LeeF said:

Your attitude is best summed up by your last sentence.

Look up the definition of bullying especially in the workplace & apply it to the scenario and you will find that the coaches & players are bullying

If you actually bothered to read the full topic you will see that nobody is asking for zero criticism but just that match officials are treated with basic respect 

The current criticism is from a position of power and ignorance. Is that fair? 
 

BTW there is at least one grammatical mistake in your post. Is calling that out when the other words & grammar are correct being pedantic or fair?

In fairness i have always had issues with my there's etc. I really don't consider it bullying you pointing it out. Its a mistake on my part. I certainly wont cry myself to sleep over it.

As to your rather sniping remark about me not reading the full topic, I've read and the entire thread and understood fully. 

Please point out to me where I said that referees shouldn't be treated with respect? All I've said, repeatedly, is when they do make mistakes people within the game should be able to point it out publicly, and I don't understand why that is a problem.

We have a situation at the moment where if you mention a referees performance or question an individual decision publicly you are fined and that to me seems ridiculous.

Your main argument against this has been that players and coaches make more errors, and hypothetically they wouldn't like it if the refs did to them.

Personally I don't see this as a problem, the media do this at the moment and nobody bats an eye. Coaches and players learn to live with it, as should referees's.

If you can explain to me how coaches currently have power or authority over referees that would be great as this doesn't seem to be the case at all?

Also as someone who has administrated disciplinary proceedings involving bullying in the workplace I am fully familiar with the definition and how these policies should be applied.

Just to reiterate, AGAIN, I'm not advocating name calling or the threatening of referee's in case that wasn't clear the number of times I have already said it.

Saying you believe somebody got something wrong, publicly doesn't constitute bullying. Which is all I'm saying coaches and players should be able to do without fear of sanction.

You can continue to tell me how wrong I am if you like, but it seems a little redundant.

 

 

 

[LeeF]

1 hour ago, Big Red Keev said:

In fairness i have always had issues with my there's etc. I really don't consider it bullying you pointing it out. Its a mistake on my part. I certainly wont cry myself to sleep over it.

As to your rather sniping remark about me not reading the full topic, I've read and the entire thread and understood fully. 

Please point out to me where I said that referees shouldn't be treated with respect? All I've said, repeatedly, is when they do make mistakes people within the game should be able to point it out publicly, and I don't understand why that is a problem.

We have a situation at the moment where if you mention a referees performance or question an individual decision publicly you are fined and that to me seems ridiculous.

Your main argument against this has been that players and coaches make more errors, and hypothetically they wouldn't like it if the refs did to them.

Personally I don't see this as a problem, the media do this at the moment and nobody bats an eye. Coaches and players learn to live with it, as should referees's.

If you can explain to me how coaches currently have power or authority over referees that would be great as this doesn't seem to be the case at all?

Also as someone who has administrated disciplinary proceedings involving bullying in the workplace I am fully familiar with the definition and how these policies should be applied.

Just to reiterate, AGAIN, I'm not advocating name calling or the threatening of referee's in case that wasn't clear the number of times I have already said it.

Saying you believe somebody got something wrong, publicly doesn't constitute bullying. Which is all I'm saying coaches and players should be able to do without fear of sanction.

You can continue to tell me how wrong I am if you like, but it seems a little redundant.

 

 

 

There is little that can be said to the above other than you are sticking to the last sentence in your previous post so what I'm going to post is probably redundant AGAIN 

Your definition & mine of bullying are clearly different but I know which one I will stick with thank you 

Out of interest can you point me in the direction of where Ian Watson castigated his players for their abject performance last weekend? In particular the dreadful attempts at tackling for at least one of the Leeds tries.

BTW there was yet another grammatical error in your post to add to the more than one in your previous post.

[Big Red Keev]

38 minutes ago, LeeF said:

There is little that can be said to the above other than you are sticking to the last sentence in your previous post so what I'm going to post is probably redundant AGAIN 

Your definition & mine of bullying are clearly different but I know which one I will stick with thank you 

Out of interest can you point me in the direction of where Ian Watson castigated his players for their abject performance last weekend? In particular the dreadful attempts at tackling for at least one of the Leeds tries.

BTW there was yet another grammatical error in your post to add to the more than one in your previous post.

Obviously our definitions are different which is fine, nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, that's kind of the entire point of forums of this kind.

I'm not really talking about the example of Ian Watson, its more the principal of the matter I'm talking about. You are correct he didn't "castigate" his own players for errors that were made. The point I am making is he is free to if he wishes. As is anyone else, I just don't know why referees need to be protected from the same level of scrutiny.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by pointing out grammatical errors I've made. I understood it the first time as you were making a point about drawing attention to mistakes. Now it feels a little personal when I just thought we were having a difference opinion about the game we both enjoy? If that's the way you want it though fine. "BTW" you are using ampersand incorrectly.

For what its worth I made a couple of spelling errors as well, I will be honest that wasn't really the focus of my attention in all honesty, I'm supposed to be working.

Without wanting to seem like I just want to get the last word in lets just leave it here. I genuinely was just debating something with you, I wasn't interested in aggravating you to the point that you would get so shirty, or turning this into some unwinnable semantic argument over the internet. So apologies if my opinion irritates you so much.

[Northern Eel]

28 minutes ago, Big Red Keev said:

Obviously our definitions are different which is fine, nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, that's kind of the entire point of forums of this kind.

I'm not really talking about the example of Ian Watson, its more the principal of the matter I'm talking about. You are correct he didn't "castigate" his own players for errors that were made. The point I am making is he is free to if he wishes. As is anyone else, I just don't know why referees need to be protected from the same level of scrutiny.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by pointing out grammatical errors I've made. I understood it the first time as you were making a point about drawing attention to mistakes. Now it feels a little personal when I just thought we were having a difference opinion about the game we both enjoy? If that's the way you want it though fine. "BTW" you are using ampersand incorrectly.

For what its worth I made a couple of spelling errors as well, I will be honest that wasn't really the focus of my attention in all honesty, I'm supposed to be working.

Without wanting to seem like I just want to get the last word in lets just leave it here. I genuinely was just debating something with you, I wasn't interested in aggravating you to the point that you would get so shirty, or turning this into some unwinnable semantic argument over the internet. So apologies if my opinion irritates you so much.

Is he suggesting that incessantly pointing out other people’s natural mistakes is likely to have a significant impact on the recipient’s wellbeing and is perhaps unfair and unnecessary? 

[LeeF]

26 minutes ago, Big Red Keev said:

Obviously our definitions are different which is fine, nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, that's kind of the entire point of forums of this kind.

I'm not really talking about the example of Ian Watson, its more the principal of the matter I'm talking about. You are correct he didn't "castigate" his own players for errors that were made. The point I am making is he is free to if he wishes. As is anyone else, I just don't know why referees need to be protected from the same level of scrutiny.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by pointing out grammatical errors I've made. I understood it the first time as you were making a point about drawing attention to mistakes. Now it feels a little personal when I just thought we were having a difference opinion about the game we both enjoy? If that's the way you want it though fine. "BTW" you are using ampersand incorrectly.

For what its worth I made a couple of spelling errors as well, I will be honest that wasn't really the focus of my attention in all honesty, I'm supposed to be working.

Without wanting to seem like I just want to get the last word in lets just leave it here. I genuinely was just debating something with you, I wasn't interested in aggravating you to the point that you would get so shirty, or turning this into some unwinnable semantic argument over the internet. So apologies if my opinion irritates you so much.

Points in bold

I agree

I would dispute principal. Watson & others have never castigated their own players the same way that they do to match officials. They wouldn’t dare as the players are free to respond etc.

See above.

Scrutiny yes. OTT comments that are factually incorrect and made in the knowledge that they cannot respond no. See one of my earlier posts 

Not personal but it’s not comfortable. At least mine was done in jest & you can respond & put your case.

I love the game. I hope you do.

Thank you. I am a lazy when typing on here.

Snap.

I’m not being shirty just defending my corner. Just like others. Your opinion doesn’t irritate me although I am seriously glad that you have listened to the other point of view

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 hour ago, Big Red Keev said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by pointing out grammatical errors I've made. I understood it the first time as you were making a point about drawing attention to mistakes. Now it feels a little personal when I just thought we were having a difference opinion about the game we both enjoy? If that's the way you want it though fine. "BTW" you are using ampersand incorrectly.

For what its worth I made a couple of spelling errors as well, I will be honest that wasn't really the focus of my attention in all honesty, I'm supposed to be working.

Without wanting to seem like I just want to get the last word in lets just leave it here. I genuinely was just debating something with you, I wasn't interested in aggravating you to the point that you would get so shirty, or turning this into some unwinnable semantic argument over the internet. So apologies if my opinion irritates you so much

Even though you knew what kind of emotion LeeF was trying to invoke in you to make his point, you still struggled with whether to take it as fair criticism or a personal attack - which is completely understandable but absolutely the point that was being made. 

[Big Red Keev]

52 minutes ago, Northern Eel said:

Is he suggesting that incessantly pointing out other people’s natural mistakes is likely to have a significant impact on the recipient’s wellbeing and is perhaps unfair and unnecessary? 

I understood that point the first time he made it in the previous post mate, hence why I didn't take offence.

I simply said it felt a little personal when he felt he needed to make it again because I somehow missed it the first time, that's why I posed it as a question to ask if that was the case. 

He has replied and advised that it isn't the case and that's fine.

You seem to be implying that I'm talking about hounding referees out of the game. I AM NOT. Any criticism made in the media or otherwise should never be personal or threatening.

Everyone makes mistakes in all walks of life, I don't expect anyone to be infallible, I simply think its fair to be able to publicly point out mistakes, even perceived mistakes when those errors have an impact on results, and it should be possible to do so without fear of sanction.

I understand that players and coaches make mistakes also, which obviously impacts performance and ultimately results. It just seems disingenuous to me to suggest that a poor refereeing performance (They do happen) cant have a huge impact on results also. This being the case I don't see the harm in stating it in an interview.

Its obvious that sometimes Coaches and Players will be unfair, petulant and down right wrong. In which case that will reflect badly on them. Sometimes however criticism will be justified and for me it should be possible to make this public which it seems at the moment you are unable to do.

The fact that referees apparently don't have the right to respond is a separate issue but an important one that I also believe should be addressed.

For me in order for the situation to be fair we either eradicate public criticism of everyone within the sport completely (Which isn't really reasonable to expect), or everyone is subject to it.

Feel free to continue to disagree with me however, that's fair enough.

 

 

[dkw]

On 24/02/2020 at 17:23, WakefieldCityLoyal said:

Judged him in all the games he’s reffed us previous.  Wish he would have the best game ever and get everything 100% correct.  Us winning or losing doesn’t matter as long as the game is refereed correctly and consistently.

I think child's is a poor referee, and that's not based on him getting decisions wrong as that will always happen with refs, and they will almost always make way less mistakes in a game than the players. It's because he loses control of games far too often for a ref at the highest level in the game, he has no authority and the players knows it. 

On topic no coach should ever oprnly question a referee in an open forum, it's unprofessional and almost always a cop out for a poor result. And I fully agree with those who say it's the players and coaches that are looking to cheat and con the ref during games that's causing a lot of the problems. 

[JohnM]

Watson or any other coach criticises his players not just over the consequences of any mistakes, but in an endeavour to change the behaviour of players so they don't make those mistakes again. 

It's the same, is it not, when coaches criticise refs: they are endeavouring to change the behaviour of the ref. in future. 

That is just not on. 

[Chrispmartha]

Slightly OT but maybe not, having seen the replay of the Evalds tackle on the Super League show, Watson should either be fined or have to apologise to the ref, his foot was down before he was tackled but Watson basically accused him of incompetence for as it turns out getting the decision correct.

I understand the emotion coaches will feel after a loss but to accuse the refs of incompetence or to basically imply the refs are being biased against their team is too far IMO and they should get fined or have to make a public apology

[LeeF]

44 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Slightly OT but maybe not, having seen the replay of the Evalds tackle on the Super League show, Watson should either be fined or have to apologise to the ref, his foot was down before he was tackled but Watson basically accused him of incompetence for as it turns out getting the decision correct.

I understand the emotion coaches will feel after a loss but to accuse the refs of incompetence or to basically imply the refs are being biased against their team is too far IMO and they should get fined or have to make a public apology

I would take it further & start issuing bans especially in the Watson case.

Preventing the coach from being present at the ground on match day would soon shut them up

[LR23]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

Slightly OT but maybe not, having seen the replay of the Evalds tackle on the Super League show, Watson should either be fined or have to apologise to the ref, his foot was down before he was tackled but Watson basically accused him of incompetence for as it turns out getting the decision correct.

I understand the emotion coaches will feel after a loss but to accuse the refs of incompetence or to basically imply the refs are being biased against their team is too far IMO and they should get fined or have to make a public apology

For balance, it wasn't about one decision. I saw it live and thought the Evalds one was close so wasn't too bothered about it. Sections of the crowd went overboard probably because of the string of strange decisions that went before that one.