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Mr Plow

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1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It’s amazing how so many posters on this forum know exactly what to do to make RL in France bigger and better, something French enthusiasts have been failing to do for 60 years. 

It is not amazing Eddie it is common sense, that they should build up from the bottom which is very clearly what they have been failing to do for 60 years, that is why they have so few quality player's, even if all the French lads who are playing on other shores went to one club aling with those already in France they would barely have enough to make a squad for one SL team never mind two, which is a direct result of having an under achieving community set up, unless you can advise differently.

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

It is not amazing Eddie it is common sense, that they should build up from the bottom which is very clearly what they have been failing to do for 60 years, that is why they have so few quality player's, even if all the French lads who are playing on other shores went to one club they would barely have enough to make a squad for one SL team never mind two, which is a direct result of having an under achieving community set up, unless you can advise differently.

I can’t advise differently, but it’s easy to point fingers and say what people are doing wrong when you don’t have the facts about finances and other barriers. It’s naive to think that nobody in France has thought of these things that are being suggested before, but as we know from this country it’s not easy to grow the community game in a minority sport. 

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35 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It’s amazing how so many posters on this forum know exactly what to do to make RL in France bigger and better, something French enthusiasts have been failing to do for 60 years. 

This has been raised on here before.  The national side did well in the early 50s and mid to late 60s.  Beating Australia, NZ, Great Britain.  Then a purple patch in the 79s.

Seems the Vichy intervention during the War didn’t hinder them so much, but after 1980 they’ve been dire.

Only they can resurrect themselves imo.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I think the first suggestion was "Any new team in France" had to be populated by only French players, Are we putting the cart before the horse here? A new team would surely have to begin life in L1 wouldn't they, as far has I know there is no relegation from that Division, have you already put another French team into SL?

You're quite right, that was the initial suggestion, things got out of hand! To be honest I felt it had drifted to current fench teams so that was my mistake. However I think that you would have a real minefield if you imposed those rules on a new club but not on existing clubs. Obviously all hypothetical at the moment!

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9 hours ago, Celt said:

Yep... we should cut ourselves off from Europe, and leave them to themselves.  We are different from them, you see...

We are much better sticking to the M62 area - and looking inwards, not outwards.

Sure a stronger France might mean a better TV deal, more money for the game, bigger sponsors, and a strong international opponent for England who aren't 12 time zones away, but why should we step in?  

Leave them to sort themselves out.

??????? 

Having lived there for some time and will do again in the near future, I dont think we are different at all.  

Not sure if your being serious mate but there was no animosity or 'cut them adrift' suggestion from me or a silly 'm62 area' wish.

The French, and Guasch especially, know their own issues.  Unfortunately they work in a political, smoke and mirrors way where they appear to be all collaborating but then they dont.  To expect them then to conform to our wishes is a pipe dream. 

Catalans are the leader with all this and TO getting promotion could stimulate the game across the corridor from Toulouse to Montpellier, maybe Avignon. 

Toulouse is quite a big city (i'm guessing 500k people) and with Aerospace a big potential sponsor.  Getting promotion and more sponsorship could be a tremendous stimulus for for the Region.

 

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30 minutes ago, Fabou said:

If you allow me a short comment, I would share my opinion (which is my own, not all the french people shares it): The future of french RL is in France, not in England.

but thank you for caring ?

 

Could you expand on that please Fabou? Do you mean that there should not be French clubs in SL (and general pyramid) in future? And if so is that future 2021 or another point? Would you like to see Toulouse promoted this season? Genuinely interested. Thanks.

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47 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Having lived there for some time and will do again in the near future, I dont think we are different at all.  

Not sure if your being serious mate but there was no animosity or 'cut them adrift' suggestion from me or a silly 'm62 area' wish.

The French, and Guasch especially, know their own issues.  Unfortunately they work in a political, smoke and mirrors way where they appear to be all collaborating but then they dont.  To expect them then to conform to our wishes is a pipe dream. 

Catalans are the leader with all this and TO getting promotion could stimulate the game across the corridor from Toulouse to Montpellier, maybe Avignon. 

Toulouse is quite a big city (i'm guessing 500k people) and with Aerospace a big potential sponsor.  Getting promotion and more sponsorship could be a tremendous stimulus for for the Region.

 

Hi LD, maybe with your expierence of living in France you can speak with a little more authority than the rest of us who are not as familiar.

First of all let me please say that I would welcome a strong French Rugby League, if it could grow it would compliment the Northern Hemisphere of our sport.

You say that the French way (if I have interpreted your words correctly) is to smile and nod their head in agreement with any proposals for the betterment of the game over there, but when they have to do their bit in the process they are not very quick at coming forward.

So what do they want, just to sit back and have everything done for them, hand it them on a plate so to speak?

In another post on this subject I implied that the game in France has declined over the years through their own fault, it must have been recognised that numbers both in participation and spectator levels (excepting Perpignan) have been dropping and what did they do about it, well not very much except hope it gets better.

I think the RFL looking in from afar recognised the problem more than the French did from within and tried to do something about it to re-fuel the game both internally and internationally and the result was the Catalan Dragons being accepted into our League system at the very top level, not long after the RFL allowed Toulouse to enter, but it seems like they did not get any assistance from their own federation and so it floundered.

So we are now on a reincarnation of Toulouse Mk2, it may well be different controlling owner/directors but it is still a team from the same city, they have done quite well in our competition but I am still wondering if it is what the good folk of Toulouse really want, you say there are circa 500,000 in/around the city but still the club struggles to get numbers to attend, my point being are they still just sitting back awaiting people to go through the turnstiles or are they getting out into the community selling it to them, it appears not so by the attendance numbers.

You finally say "Toulouse is quite a big city and with Aerospace a big potential sponsor.  Getting promotion and more sponsorship could be a tremendous stimulus for the Region" I hope that would be the case, but they have to give it a good dose of looking at themselves and prosper, both financially and on the field of play, also being part of the same league system as the other teams they should be alligned to the same conditions in both P&R - you did say gaining promotion, I hope that did mean by the correct route and not being fastracked, and also suffering the same fate as any other team if they *finish bottom.

Whatever the game in France has to promote and better itself, we should wise up to this, not just accept "this is their way of doing things". It may sound as though I am a Francophile but I can assure you I am not, I have many aquantencies through years of buisness and visiting the country many times both on buisness trips and holiday's.

Perhap's some of our French posters will reply, to either castigate me or agree that my interpretations are on the right lines.

These are just my thoughts and opinions, and I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with them.

*I just can't get my head around people who want some teams who perform in the same division exempt some teams from jeopardy whilst others are expected to suffer the consequences, if nothing else it could be used to manipulate the league standings.

 

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49 minutes ago, Fabou said:

If you allow me a short comment, I would share my opinion (which is my own, not all the french people shares it): The future of french RL is in France, not in England.

but thank you for caring ?

 

well i need to complete my previous comment :

The catalan in SL has been a salvation for the french RL, showing that there can be prof RL in France. Seen the situation in France, I would say that both Catalans and TO in SL will be mandatory (if the performances on the field allow it) for the french development. And for that, France will be forever thankful towards the RFL.

BUT. If I have to look at a bigger Picture, (I read some comments about increasing the number of french SL grade players, Young development, international competitivity … briefly said : To reach a professional level in France, which is what I thought is all about in that thread), then, I maintain : future of french RL is in France.

catalans have reached their max support, TO not yet, but what next?

There will not be any big increase in interest in France based on 2 teams who play abroad. nobody cares. and if nobody cares, no professinal level will be reached.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Now that would be a great idea as it would make certain clubs take junior development more seriously than some do now.

Why is junior development the responsibility of professional clubs? Surely the responsibility of governing bodies?

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24 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Why is junior development the responsibility of professional clubs? Surely the responsibility of governing bodies?

It is the responsibility of every professional in the game. Be them the governing body or the individual clubs.

Where are the professional clubs going to get players from if they don't take an active role in junior development?

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11 minutes ago, Click said:

It is the responsibility of every professional in the game. Be them the governing body or the individual clubs.

Where are the professional clubs going to get players from if they don't take an active role in junior development?

I understand that junior development is in a club’s interest, but it should not be their responsibility. 

It is the responsibility of the governing body. If they choose to deliver that responsibility through professional clubs (which is a potential route) then so be it.

As confusing as it sounds @Eddie I would consider removing professional clubs from all junior development responsibility.

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58 minutes ago, Click said:

It is the responsibility of every professional in the game. Be them the governing body or the individual clubs.

Where are the professional clubs going to get players from if they don't take an active role in junior development?

Pardon Click,

Professional clibs very, very rarely  have been involved in the junior game, some clubs used to have Colts U-17's and 'B' teams U-19's but they were never involved under those age levels, and if they signed a player from a community club they would donate a sum say £20 or £50 to the club, In latter years pro clubs have been signing young kids with potential of 12, 13, 14, on retainer forms, just so other clubs can't get access to them, if they make it through all well and good if they don't they are just jettisoned and it has not cost a lot.

From what I have read in recent years London have done more than a lot of other clubs in development but they had to do in a relative virgin area.

But times have changed it is schools and amatuer clubs that produce the kids (and not so much schools any more, the game will soon be stopped under health and safety issues) and I agree the professional game needs to get involved both financially and physically literally being there at the clubs and having a presence, and starting quickly time is of the essence.

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France shouldn't be that good, but they should be up there with PNG/Fiji/Wales.  They lose nearly every game against fully pro opposition.  There's lots of reasons why they aren't as good as the top 4 nations.  But they should be a hell of a lot better than they are.  Maybe lack of a quality spine at 1, 6, 7, 9, 13? 

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1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

I understand that junior development is in a club’s interest, but it should not be their responsibility. 

It is the responsibility of the governing body. If they choose to deliver that responsibility through professional clubs (which is a potential route) then so be it.

As confusing as it sounds @Eddie I would consider removing professional clubs from all junior development responsibility.

I can see from your Avatar were you abode SP, are you a native of those parts in RL terms, are does your background gave you involved at all in the community game up north?

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi LD, maybe with your expierence of living in France you can speak with a little more authority than the rest of us who are not as familiar.

First of all let me please say that I would welcome a strong French Rugby League, if it could grow it would compliment the Northern Hemisphere of our sport.

You say that the French way (if I have interpreted your words correctly) is to smile and nod their head in agreement with any proposals for the betterment of the game over there, but when they have to do their bit in the process they are not very quick at coming forward.

So what do they want, just to sit back and have everything done for them, hand it them on a plate so to speak?

In another post on this subject I implied that the game in France has declined over the years through their own fault, it must have been recognised that numbers both in participation and spectator levels (excepting Perpignan) have been dropping and what did they do about it, well not very much except hope it gets better.

I think the RFL looking in from afar recognised the problem more than the French did from within and tried to do something about it to re-fuel the game both internally and internationally and the result was the Catalan Dragons being accepted into our League system at the very top level, not long after the RFL allowed Toulouse to enter, but it seems like they did not get any assistance from their own federation and so it floundered.

So we are now on a reincarnation of Toulouse Mk2, it may well be different controlling owner/directors but it is still a team from the same city, they have done quite well in our competition but I am still wondering if it is what the good folk of Toulouse really want, you say there are circa 500,000 in/around the city but still the club struggles to get numbers to attend, my point being are they still just sitting back awaiting people to go through the turnstiles or are they getting out into the community selling it to them, it appears not so by the attendance numbers.

You finally say "Toulouse is quite a big city and with Aerospace a big potential sponsor.  Getting promotion and more sponsorship could be a tremendous stimulus for the Region" I hope that would be the case, but they have to give it a good dose of looking at themselves and prosper, both financially and on the field of play, also being part of the same league system as the other teams they should be alligned to the same conditions in both P&R - you did say gaining promotion, I hope that did mean by the correct route and not being fastracked, and also suffering the same fate as any other team if they *finish bottom.

Whatever the game in France has to promote and better itself, we should wise up to this, not just accept "this is their way of doing things". It may sound as though I am a Francophile but I can assure you I am not, I have many aquantencies through years of buisness and visiting the country many times both on buisness trips and holiday's.

Perhap's some of our French posters will reply, to either castigate me or agree that my interpretations are on the right lines.

These are just my thoughts and opinions, and I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with them.

*I just can't get my head around people who want some teams who perform in the same division exempt some teams from jeopardy whilst others are expected to suffer the consequences, if nothing else it could be used to manipulate the league standings.

 

I’m sure both Clubs want to do things their own way without any help.  Why would Catalans want to change their game day experience, marketing or merchandising for most of SL clubs standard?  

I’m certain they could learn something from us but I’m struggling to see what.  Probably engagement with Schools although they are well on with that and gave a decent bloke involved with it.

Like all Champs clubs, if TO do get a shot at SL, they will have to build a stronger squad, depthwise.  Same as Leigh would.

 

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15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I can see from your Avatar were you abode SP, are you a native of those parts in RL terms, are does your background gave you involved at all in the community game up north?

I’m not sure I understand your question @Harry Stottle so I will give it my best shot. Native I am not, but my involvement in the sport of RL spans the breadth of RL’s European footprint, Yorkshire to Yeovil, Dublin to Dagenham, Moscow to Malta and Stockholm to Serbia at all levels from SL to Saturday minis RL and everywhere in between. 

It means is my opinions are based on a very sound, experienced and intimate knowledge of the sport and it’s governance from NWC to IRL.

Not that any of that means my opinion is more correct than any other here.

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34 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Pardon Click,

Professional clibs very, very rarely  have been involved in the junior game, some clubs used to have Colts U-17's and 'B' teams U-19's but they were never involved under those age levels, and if they signed a player from a community club they would donate a sum say £20 or £50 to the club, In latter years pro clubs have been signing young kids with potential of 12, 13, 14, on retainer forms, just so other clubs can't get access to them, if they make it through all well and good if they don't they are just jettisoned and it has not cost a lot.

From what I have read in recent years London have done more than a lot of other clubs in development but they had to do in a relative virgin area.

But times have changed it is schools and amatuer clubs that produce the kids (and not so much schools any more, the game will soon be stopped under health and safety issues) and I agree the professional game needs to get involved both financially and physically literally being there at the clubs and having a presence, and starting quickly time is of the essence.

I completely understand what you are saying, in terms of junior development starting at school levels - I just don't see many juniors getting involved in the sport if there is little involvment with the SL teams - If there is no route for them to go from playing schools rugby to potentially playing in SL one day, a lot of these kids would choose other sports instead.

It is something the professional clubs need to get more involved with, as too many kids are lost to the game IMO.

London is a good example, as we are unable to rely on the amateur scene and the schools scene without first building up these areas in a top down approach, and having to have LB players and staff going into schools, etc.

I am not trying to say that they have had a heavy involvment in the scene leading up to now - But they should have a much bigger footprint in these levels of RL in the future.

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We need to start serious development in France by having Toulouse in Super League, which will increase French public interest in rugby league in Toulouse (France's fourth biggest city), and in other parts of southwestern France because of the creation of a local rivalry.

Toulouse is a much bigger and more important city than Perpignan, with lots more potential fans, players, and especially rich sponsors. If Toulouse can have a professional rugby league team, competing with the English and the Catalans every week, then it will attract more fans and sponsors than Perpignan and become a very important rugby league club in the northern hemisphere. It will then, over the long term, attract more French players emerging from a rejuvenated Toulouse  junior structure.

If Toulouse and Catalans are both in Super League then the chances of a good TV deal are increased massively, not only because of the great increase in potential viewers that having Toulouse in Super League would offer, but also because of the chance (with the cooperation of the Super League), to show a Super League game being played in France every  week.

If Super League mandates a majority of each French club's players being French every week (9 out of 17), rather than an unrealistic 12, then the prospects of blooding enough professional players for a strong French national team is definitely increased.

Having Catalans and Toulouse in Super League should increase French junior player recruitment over time, and thus eventually the potential French senior player pool. However over the long term the RFL and Super League should also encourage the emergence of more French professional clubs in Super League, which will be more plausible to potential French business owners once Toulouse is established in SUper League. Those new clubs, ideally, would be based in at least two cities out of Avignon, Montpellier, Paris and Lyon. At that point, with four French Super League teams (one of which should be Paris), France should have a profitable TV deal, have enough professional players to be competitive at the national level, and thus also create a more credible international rugby league competition, especially a more credible World Cup.

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22 minutes ago, Manfred Mann said:

We need to start serious development in France by having Toulouse in Super League, which will increase French public interest in rugby league in Toulouse (France's fourth biggest city), and in other parts of southwestern France because of the creation of a local rivalry.

Toulouse is a much bigger and more important city than Perpignan, with lots more potential fans, players, and especially rich sponsors. If Toulouse can have a professional rugby league team, competing with the English and the Catalans every week, then it will attract more fans and sponsors than Perpignan and become a very important rugby league club in the northern hemisphere. It will then, over the long term, attract more French players emerging from a rejuvenated Toulouse  junior structure.

If Toulouse and Catalans are both in Super League then the chances of a good TV deal are increased massively, not only because of the great increase in potential viewers that having Toulouse in Super League would offer, but also because of the chance (with the cooperation of the Super League), to show a Super League game being played in France every  week.

If Super League mandates a majority of each French club's players being French every week (9 out of 17), rather than an unrealistic 12, then the prospects of blooding enough professional players for a strong French national team is definitely increased.

Having Catalans and Toulouse in Super League should increase French junior player recruitment over time, and thus eventually the potential French senior player pool. However over the long term the RFL and Super League should also encourage the emergence of more French professional clubs in Super League, probably based in at least two cities out of Avignon, Montpellier, Paris and Lyon. At that point, with four French Super League teams, France should have a profitable TV deal, have enough professional players to be competitive at the national level, and thus also create a more credible international rugby league competition, especially a more credible World Cup.

So you advocate 4 French SL plus 5 NA has you have done in the past, I make that with a squad of say circa 30 player's each for a total of about 270 SL capable player's, good luck with that one. 

You seem so certain that it will all fall into place in a hunky dory fashion IF and as soon as T.O. are elevated to SL by their own steam or fastracked. 

If they do reach SL they will have to jettison some of their current French stars and replace them with overseas players of a better quality to compete in SL, what kind of a message do you think that will send out to the French public, when they look at both teams in T.O. and Catalan who will employ the vast majority of their rosters from outside of France.

PS I don't  think TO are good enough to be promoted this season, early doors yet I know, just a feeling I've got, also other forces like that virus that is knocking about could well impact on inter country travel if it gets any worse.

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13 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So you advocate 4 French SL plus 5 NA has you have done in the past, I make that with a squad of say circa 30 player's each for a total of about 270 SL capable player's, good luck with that one. 

You seem so certain that it will all fall into place in a hunky dory fashion IF and as soon as T.O. are elevated to SL by their own steam or fastracked. 

If they do reach SL they will have to jettison some of their current French stars and replace them with overseas players of a better quality to compete in SL, what kind of a message do you think that will send out to the French public, when they look at both teams in T.O. and Catalan who will employ the vast majority of their rosters from outside of France.

 

No. I didn't say that it would all fall into place if and as soon as Toulouse are elevated to SL. I made clear that this would take time -- how much time I do not know. What I did say was that the successful elevation of Toulouse into SL would have many positive consequences over time --- starting with a decent TV deal, and also attracting more players, fans and sponsors to the game in France. All of this would make it more likely that, over time, rugby league would become an attractive past time for rich French businessmen and corporate executives, and therefore that other French clubs could eventually be formed to enter Super League.

The French public will not see the majority of their club's playing roster from outside of France. I made clear that Super League should mandate a majority of the 17 players selected each week by a French Super League club should be French.

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I also think as a sport we're really missing a trick by not having a plan for including Avignon in the league structure. It's a gateway to South East France and places like Toulon, Marseille etc. I was in Avignon last year and I was surprised by how popular the sport is. 

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4 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

We need to start serious development in France by having Toulouse in Super League, which will increase French public interest in rugby league in Toulouse (France's fourth biggest city), and in other parts of southwestern France because of the creation of a local rivalry.

Toulouse is a much bigger and more important city than Perpignan, with lots more potential fans, players, and especially rich sponsors. If Toulouse can have a professional rugby league team, competing with the English and the Catalans every week, then it will attract more fans and sponsors than Perpignan and become a very important rugby league club in the northern hemisphere. It will then, over the long term, attract more French players emerging from a rejuvenated Toulouse  junior structure.

If Toulouse and Catalans are both in Super League then the chances of a good TV deal are increased massively, not only because of the great increase in potential viewers that having Toulouse in Super League would offer, but also because of the chance (with the cooperation of the Super League), to show a Super League game being played in France every  week.

If Super League mandates a majority of each French club's players being French every week (9 out of 17), rather than an unrealistic 12, then the prospects of blooding enough professional players for a strong French national team is definitely increased.

Having Catalans and Toulouse in Super League should increase French junior player recruitment over time, and thus eventually the potential French senior player pool. However over the long term the RFL and Super League should also encourage the emergence of more French professional clubs in Super League, which will be more plausible to potential French business owners once Toulouse is established in SUper League. Those new clubs, ideally, would be based in at least two cities out of Avignon, Montpellier, Paris and Lyon. At that point, with four French Super League teams (one of which should be Paris), France should have a profitable TV deal, have enough professional players to be competitive at the national level, and thus also create a more credible international rugby league competition, especially a more credible World Cup.

The Toulouse side in elite 1 have just forfeited their latest fixture which, combined with Olympique`s relatively low crowds, suggests that any top-down approach will be built on sand. The French media establishment will never allow a rival to RU, unless the number of players and followers grows to a level that can`t be ignored. Therefore plugging away at the grass roots is the only viable option. The work of Lyon Villeurbanne and Marseille Avenir in major population centres looks encouraging. These two clubs have a high proportion of people from Arab and African backgrounds involved, and I`ve seen an article about the owner of the Nanterre club where he talks of the potential for Rugby a treize in la banlieu. This suggests a better strategy than trying to eat into embedded Union capacities.

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