The Daddy Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said: The Toulouse side in elite 1 have just forfeited their latest fixture which, combined with Olympique`s relatively low crowds, suggests that any top-down approach will be built on sand. The French media establishment will never allow a rival to RU, unless the number of players and followers grows to a level that can`t be ignored. Therefore plugging away at the grass roots is the only viable option. The work of Lyon Villeurbanne and Marseille Avenir in major population centres looks encouraging. These two clubs have a high proportion of people from Arab and African backgrounds involved, and I`ve seen an article about the owner of the Nanterre club where he talks of the potential for Rugby a treize in la banlieu. This suggests a better strategy than trying to eat into embedded Union capacities. Can you expand on what you call is Olympique's 'relatively low crowds' are you expecting them to get 60,000 every week in the Championship? Alot of English RL fans are delusional, they're judging French and Canadian clubs on standards that english clubs can't even reach themselves Most clubs even in SL have low crowds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: also other forces like that virus that is knocking about could well impact on inter country travel if it gets any worse. Bit strong that I mean I don't like Boris Johnson but calling him a virus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themusician_2 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 It's quite simple really. RL in France failed to professionalise itself when it needed to whilst it was still extremely in the 1950s-1970s. There have been people who promised to invest in a fully professional competition with all the major markets in France included i.e Paris, Lyon, Toulouse, Bordeaux etc... But all these investors where like the Denver guy, all talk. Our game needs guys who will spend millions of euros in creating a fully professional comp in the France that is how the game will be taken to the next level. It needs private funding there's nothing more FFRXIII and the volunteers on the ground can do to grow the game. They should only be responsible for the grassroots part of the game. TL;DR: RL in France needs a professional arm and private money to do so SL is not the solution to make France tier one their player pool is very small. A lot of people use New Zealand as an example with only one NRL side but NZ have much more professional players due to the opportunities in the NRL. Super league is a poison chalice for France all the attention has been moved away from their domestic comp. There's way too many foreign players in the dragons but the dragons don't want to get relegated. Even if Toulouse get promoted I guarantee you they'll bring in more foreigners to say up instead of bringing in through more local talent. But it's really the only opportunity for professional RL they have. Tl;DR SL isn't the solution but really it's the only concrete opportunity they have They also need to play more tests but it's understandable why they don't do to costs and not being able to get pro players off duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 17 hours ago, The Daddy said: Can you expand on what you call is Olympique's 'relatively low crowds' are you expecting them to get 60,000 every week in the Championship? Alot of English RL fans are delusional, they're judging French and Canadian clubs on standards that english clubs can't even reach themselves Most clubs even in SL have low crowds Relative to what the Toulouse RU club get now that they`re in the same stadium. I`m also saying that it`s unlikely that many can be attracted from the Union crowd, that they should look to build a different audience. I realise how daunting this is, but the size of the population offers encouragement, unlike the small towns further South where the game is strong but they`re already at or close to capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 23 hours ago, The Daddy said: I also think as a sport we're really missing a trick by not having a plan for including Avignon in the league structure. It's a gateway to South East France and places like Toulon, Marseille etc. I was in Avignon last year and I was surprised by how popular the sport is. I’d love to see Avignon in but surely it’s them that need the plan to get in, if indeed they even want to. It’s not like they’re pulling up trees in Elite 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, Eddie said: I’d love to see Avignon in but surely it’s them that need the plan to get in, if indeed they even want to. It’s not like they’re pulling up trees in Elite 1. Les bisons won the comp in 2018 in a terrific final, yet there was only a small clump with blue and white balloons to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Daddy Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 4 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said: Relative to what the Toulouse RU club get now that they`re in the same stadium. I`m also saying that it`s unlikely that many can be attracted from the Union crowd, that they should look to build a different audience. I realise how daunting this is, but the size of the population offers encouragement, unlike the small towns further South where the game is strong but they`re already at or close to capacity. How many SL clubs can match the crowds at Toulouse RU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 23 minutes ago, The Daddy said: How many SL clubs can match the crowds at Toulouse RU? Not nearly enough. The relevant part to this thread though, is that Toulouse RU`s support comes from within, it doesn`t depend on playing in an overseas comp. If Olympique did get into SL along with Catalans it should create something more than the sum of the parts, but for how long without a strong underpinning grass roots infrastructure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Daddy Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 31 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said: Not nearly enough. The relevant part to this thread though, is that Toulouse RU`s support comes from within, it doesn`t depend on playing in an overseas comp. If Olympique did get into SL along with Catalans it should create something more than the sum of the parts, but for how long without a strong underpinning grass roots infrastructure? So we both agree that crowds across SL and the Championship are low. So your point about TO having low crowds is irrelevant. I didn't understand the rest of the gibberish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manfred Mann Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said: Not nearly enough. The relevant part to this thread though, is that Toulouse RU`s support comes from within, it doesn`t depend on playing in an overseas comp. If Olympique did get into SL along with Catalans it should create something more than the sum of the parts, but for how long without a strong underpinning grass roots infrastructure? Toulouse does have a strong grass roots infrastructure. It has its own youth academy (pole espoir). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Manfred Mann said: Toulouse does have a strong grass roots infrastructure. It has its own youth academy (pole espoir). But not strong enough to prevent this weekend`s forfeit in elite 1. This might be one instance, but right across the French game they`ve always produced competitive youth sides, something seems to go awry between academy and open age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 6 hours ago, The Daddy said: So we both agree that crowds across SL and the Championship are low. So your point about TO having low crowds is irrelevant. I didn't understand the rest of the gibberish. I did say "relatively" low crowds. Is it not a bit disappointing that they haven`t risen since they moved into a much better stadium, considering the size of the population and how attractive to watch they are. Maybe they`ll rise through the season, let`s hope so. The main point of the earlier "gibberish" though was their inability to field a side in elite 1 this week, something which is causing consternation on Treize Mondial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themusician_2 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 17 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said: Relative to what the Toulouse RU club get now that they`re in the same stadium. I`m also saying that it`s unlikely that many can be attracted from the Union crowd, that they should look to build a different audience. I realise how daunting this is, but the size of the population offers encouragement, unlike the small towns further South where the game is strong but they`re already at or close to capacity. Toulouse is a union city they have to appeal to the union crowd to get more fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 43 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said: Toulouse is a union city they have to appeal to the union crowd to get more fans. The Rugby League had high hopes for the Gloucester All Golds but it didn't materialise even with the enigmatic Lionel Hurst at it's head, reason very simple Gloucester is a staunch RU city, it has no football as in a national league team, but it does have a rivalry with other RU clubs in what is a staunch Union area in the country. Granted T.O. are of a higher profile than G.A.G's ever acheived, but the challenge to entice support over to them is a very big ask in a City that is essentially RU and Football, in Union having one of the best teams in Europe - winning the Heineken Cup a record 4 times - and having a Football team that plays in Ligue 1 the top division in the French Football competition. If I had to make a comparrison with an English city on a very similar sporting level, I would choose Leicester, massive in both RU and Association Football, what propects would you give for a Rugby League club in that city, in my opinion not a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 39 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: The Rugby League had high hopes for the Gloucester All Golds but it didn't materialise even with the enigmatic Lionel Hurst at it's head, reason very simple Gloucester is a staunch RU city, it has no football as in a national league team, but it does have a rivalry with other RU clubs in what is a staunch Union area in the country. Granted T.O. are of a higher profile than G.A.G's ever acheived, but the challenge to entice support over to them is a very big ask in a City that is essentially RU and Football, in Union having one of the best teams in Europe - winning the Heineken Cup a record 4 times - and having a Football team that plays in Ligue 1 the top division in the French Football competition. If I had to make a comparrison with an English city on a very similar sporting level, I would choose Leicester, massive in both RU and Association Football, what propects would you give for a Rugby League club in that city, in my opinion not a lot. Nah the simple reason had little to do with GloucesterSHIRE All Golds failing due to Gloucester having an RU team because they were a university team that played in Cheltenham... I agree with the sentiment though that it is hard to be the "3rd team" in a city. Leeds, Leicester, arguably Bristol, Northampton, Bradford are all examples of cities with 2 big teams where one happens to play rugby code of football. I suppose the difference is with RL is that the bar is relatively low. Get crowds of 5000+ (which TO have and would be likely to get in SL) and you're by definition one of the top 10 or so best supported in the Northern Hemisphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Daddy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 My point is why are fans of heartlands clubs making demands of expansion clubs that their own clubs do not meet. Most UK clubs get relatively low crowds, if you made crowds the only criteria for entering SL very few of SL clubs would meet those standards. Yet again I reference Catalan Dragons crowds before they were in SL it was less than Toulouse's and yet they are one of the most successful clubs commercially in Europe. Assessing crowds in the Championship is not a realistic way of assessing feasibility to SL, especially for clubs outside the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, The Daddy said: My point is why are fans of heartlands clubs making demands of expansion clubs that their own clubs do not meet. Most UK clubs get relatively low crowds, if you made crowds the only criteria for entering SL very few of SL clubs would meet those standards. Yet again I reference Catalan Dragons crowds before they were in SL it was less than Toulouse's and yet they are one of the most successful clubs commercially in Europe. Assessing crowds in the Championship is not a realistic way of assessing feasibility to SL, especially for clubs outside the UK. As a Broncos fan you might be too quick to see comments about low crowds in expansion areas as attacks on your existence. If you`re in Sarf Landan, maybe a bit of Mccarthy-Scarsbrook Millwall spirit too. These comments from the heartlands are much more disappointment than criticism. Every time I watch TO I think " this deserves a much bigger audience", had hoped the old stadium was putting some people off, that at Ernest-Wallon they might get similar to last year`s Wolfpack game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Daddy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said: As a Broncos fan you might be too quick to see comments about low crowds in expansion areas as attacks on your existence. If you`re in Sarf Landan, maybe a bit of Mccarthy-Scarsbrook Millwall spirit too. These comments from the heartlands are much more disappointment than criticism. Every time I watch TO I think " this deserves a much bigger audience", had hoped the old stadium was putting some people off, that at Ernest-Wallon they might get similar to last year`s Wolfpack game. You could say the same for every SL or championship club, your point is irrelevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Click Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said: As a Broncos fan you might be too quick to see comments about low crowds in expansion areas as attacks on your existence. If you`re in Sarf Landan, maybe a bit of Mccarthy-Scarsbrook Millwall spirit too. These comments from the heartlands are much more disappointment than criticism. Every time I watch TO I think " this deserves a much bigger audience", had hoped the old stadium was putting some people off, that at Ernest-Wallon they might get similar to last year`s Wolfpack game. Pretty much every time I watch a game of RL, whether it is played in UK, France or Aus I think "this deserves a much bigger audience" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, The Daddy said: You could day the same for every SL or championship club, your point is irrelevant The Daddy`s not for turning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themusician_2 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: The Rugby League had high hopes for the Gloucester All Golds but it didn't materialise even with the enigmatic Lionel Hurst at it's head, reason very simple Gloucester is a staunch RU city, it has no football as in a national league team, but it does have a rivalry with other RU clubs in what is a staunch Union area in the country. Granted T.O. are of a higher profile than G.A.G's ever acheived, but the challenge to entice support over to them is a very big ask in a City that is essentially RU and Football, in Union having one of the best teams in Europe - winning the Heineken Cup a record 4 times - and having a Football team that plays in Ligue 1 the top division in the French Football competition. If I had to make a comparrison with an English city on a very similar sporting level, I would choose Leicester, massive in both RU and Association Football, what propects would you give for a Rugby League club in that city, in my opinion not a lot. I'm not saying TO will ever be as big and as popular as stade toulousian. That'll never happen. But they need to appeal to other sports fans to grow the fan base. The good news is that TFC is terrible the football fans will be easier to covert. I think the All Golds can convert some people if they were consistently in super league but they of course will never be bigger than Gloucester RU. The only union town i can think of where the RL side is more popular is Auckland. But they are an anomaly. How much league is there in Leicester not much so it will have to be a long build. I think places like Bristol and Leicester are great areas for expansion pretty big markets those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themusician_2 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 5 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Nah the simple reason had little to do with GloucesterSHIRE All Golds failing due to Gloucester having an RU team because they were a university team that played in Cheltenham... I agree with the sentiment though that it is hard to be the "3rd team" in a city. Leeds, Leicester, arguably Bristol, Northampton, Bradford are all examples of cities with 2 big teams where one happens to play rugby code of football. I suppose the difference is with RL is that the bar is relatively low. Get crowds of 5000+ (which TO have and would be likely to get in SL) and you're by definition one of the top 10 or so best supported in the Northern Hemisphere. We are too over-saturated in the NW of England. Where as the RU and Football clubs are spread out better besides London but London have the population. I think that explains the crowds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabou Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 On 02/03/2020 at 15:30, Themusician_2 said: The good news is that TFC is terrible the football fans will be easier to covert. dont you dare talking about us. we are doing just fine. this 15 consecutive defeats was part of the plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Themusician_2 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 55 minutes ago, Fabou said: dont you dare talking about us. we are doing just fine. this 15 consecutive defeats was part of the plan. It's getting pretty bad down there as well https://futaa.com/article/203403/max-gradel-slams-toulouse-fans-for-lack-of-support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 On 02/03/2020 at 15:12, Themusician_2 said: We are too over-saturated in the NW of England. Where as the RU and Football clubs are spread out better besides London but London have the population. I think that explains the crowds You don’t think there are loads of football league and too non-league clubs in the NW of England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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