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Ottawa Aces (Merged Threads)

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13 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It seems very strange to me that Toulouse and Catalans don't bother to translate such things, do they have a clue about marketing and promotion?  Do you have links to any of those French reports about Ottawa?

Quebec French is quite different from 'France French'.  Quebecois uses a ridiculous amount of anglicisms, however it then conversely refuses to use certain anglicisms that are quite prevalent in France/Belgium/Suisse/Luxembourg etc.

The most obvious example is 'Arret' instead of 'Stop' on a stop sign.  Quebec also is the only place I have ever seen 'PFK'.  Poulet Frit Kentucky.  The rest of the world uses KFC.

Toulouse and Catalans don't translate some Rugby League terms, but they do translate others: "Essai" on the Big Screen for example.

I should caveat the above by saying that Ottawa is (intentionally, as it is the capital) located slap bang on the Ontario/Quebec border.  While it is located inside Ontario, the neighbouring city of Hull (the two are jointly signposted on the highway and together make up the National Capital Region) is in Quebec.  A load of the government offices are situated there. To give an idea of distance, 18 year olds in Ottawa, where the legal drinking age in Ontario is 19, can stroll across the bridge to Hull and legally drink the night away.  

Edited by Celt

Rugby League: Alive and Handling

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6 hours ago, Hxrlfc3 said:

This new Canadian team is  a real mistake by the rl. This further goes to hurt championship and league one clubs from any promotion due to ottawa being heavily financed. What's the bet come June when Toronto still bottom the rl cancels relegation. Imagine having 2 Canadian teams in the championship. I think I've had it with rugby league now. Complete joke and attendances nose diving. Football only for me now.

That's the spirit!

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44 minutes ago, Celt said:

Quebec French is quite different from 'France French'.  Quebecois uses a ridiculous amount of anglicisms, however it then conversely refuses to use certain anglicisms that are quite prevalent in France/Belgium/Suisse/Luxembourg etc.

The most obvious example is 'Arret' instead of 'Stop' on a stop sign.  Quebec also is the only place I have ever seen 'PFK'.  Poulet Frit Kentucky.  The rest of the world uses KFC.

Toulouse and Catalans don't translate some Rugby League terms, but they do translate others: "Essai" on the Big Screen for example.

I should caveat the above by saying that Ottawa is (intentionally, as it is the capital) located slap bang on the Ontario/Quebec border.  While it is located inside Ontario, the neighbouring city of Hull (the two are jointly signposted on the highway and together make up the National Capital Region) is in Quebec.  A load of the government offices are situated there. To give an idea of distance, 18 year olds in Ottawa, where the legal drinking age in Ontario is 19, can stroll across the bridge to Hull and legally drink the night away.  

You didn't tell me much there which I didn't already know.  FYI I lived in Ottawa some years ago now so I know the area well.  My surprise was re Toulouse and Catalans not translating things, I'd have thought that would be obvious thing to do in France.

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8 hours ago, Hxrlfc3 said:

This new Canadian team is  a real mistake by the rl. This further goes to hurt championship and league one clubs from any promotion due to ottawa being heavily financed. What's the bet come June when Toronto still bottom the rl cancels relegation. Imagine having 2 Canadian teams in the championship. I think I've had it with rugby league now. Complete joke and attendances nose diving. Football only for me now.

So is that Halifax Town you are supporting now? Or a top Premier league team full of foreign players?

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Personally I would love for the Wolfpack to play a couple of early season games at BC Place, but it would be really expensive and I’m not sure what size crowd would turn out, when Canada RU has played games there they have really mobilized their member clubs and offered tickets for $15 and still failed to get more than 14,000 having originally expected to fill the lower bowl (23,000). Also people talk about a 9 hour flight and then playing a game within 24 hours as if it is a simple act when it’s anything but. The only way I could see it working is if the visiting team arrived on the Wednesday then played Saturday and flew back Sunday.

As for using a stadium on Vancouver Island there is the added logistics of an expensive ferry crossing which get disrupted when the wind blows, although it would be nice to put a game on right next to Rugby Canada HQ, that would really get the old colonials choking on their G&T’s!

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On 10/03/2020 at 10:57, Man of Kent said:

Your just making excuses for inaction, really. This is Toronto not Timbuktu. Rugby is a well established sport.

The Wolfpack could have easily started a low key, low cost local ‘academy’ (perhaps with help from CRL volunteers) by now. Even if at first it’s just a few dozen young lads training on a Saturday morning that would still be worthwhile as it plants a seed of growth. 

Yet nothing as yet. So far all we’ve had is warm words on local player development but talk is cheap. Do they actually want to develop Canadian players?

I'm not making excuses for anything, I just actually know what I'm talking about and I'm being realistic about the situation for junior development in Canada.

Rugby isn't Rugby league, and as I said before, even if they could siphon talent off of RU in Canada (which I doubt is realistic) they've got none of the resources or tools to develop that talent once they've got it, so what would be the point in signing it in the first place.

Where are these "few dozen lads" going to come from?

Who's selecting them?

Who are they going to play?

Who are the volunteers and what are their qualifications, are they even certified to be working with minors?

Where are the coaches, trainers, medical staff, etc, going to come from and what are their qualifications?

Where are they going to train and play?

Who's going to pay for all this?

Seriously, you haven't thought any of this through.

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19 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep about 3 generations at least, - couldn't be bothered reading what Perez said he spouted a load of tosh last time he was in the limelight, but I will give him credit in recognising there are enough over here to swallow his bile and keep him in a job - but I did see the resume that someone posted that quoted Perez saying player's will be produced in a generation, as you say to even get people interested enough to participate in this game to initialize even a crumb of an infrastructure and then put all the rungs on the ladder from the base floor level to producing professionals will not happen overnight. 

Both Toronto and now Ottawa are at the same position on the production of Canadian nationals, the former is in SL and Ottawa will be hoping to get there as soon as possible and it will be the hope to produce homegrown talent to play at the very top level of the N. Hemisphere Rugby League.

Do people actually realise from all the 1000's of kids who first pick up a rugby ball how many make it to one of 12 academies, and from those circa 200 player's in the academy teams the numbers who convert to be a Super League player, the numbers are very small indeed. So to put everything in place in Canada will be as I say 3 generations if it indeed gets of the ground at all, I am not certain that it will, until then we will have to recognise that 'expansion' is just people turning up to watch some players from far away shores performing.

It probably won't take 3 generations, but it'll definitely take a while.

If I had to guess then I'd say that it'll probably be 20-35 years before they regularly produce talent, and the stars would have to align for it to take 20 years.

What Toronto and Ottawa should do is get together and come take a tour of some of the junior systems in Australia. Maybe come down for a couple of weeks during the season and check out places like Penrith, Brisbane, maybe Canberra or Newcastle as well, meet up with some of the people and talk to them about how they do things. Maybe even head over to Perth to see what they've achieved on a budget without a culture of RL and an NRL teams' backing.

It'd be a good way to get an idea of what goes into it, form some relationships that could come in handy later on, and who knows maybe if they are willing they might be able to convince a few guys to come over and give them a hand.

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1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

I'm not making excuses for anything, I just actually know what I'm talking about and I'm being realistic about the situation for junior development in Canada.

Rugby isn't Rugby league, and as I said before, even if they could siphon talent off of RU in Canada (which I doubt is realistic) they've got none of the resources or tools to develop that talent once they've got it, so what would be the point in signing it in the first place.

Where are these "few dozen lads" going to come from?

Who's selecting them?

Who are they going to play?

Who are the volunteers and what are their qualifications, are they even certified to be working with minors?

Where are the coaches, trainers, medical staff, etc, going to come from and what are their qualifications?

Where are they going to train and play?

Who's going to pay for all this?

Seriously, you haven't thought any of this through.

You’re trying to make this seem awfully harder than it really is. The lads come from union and other sports. They train at a GTA rugby club. They play each other. The volunteers are the CRL and expats. The cost is low but a Wolfpack GTA development officer would help.

To be clear this wouldn’t be a full academy churning out pro players from the start but a juniors programme with the potential to become an academy.

Ultimately it’s about the Wolfpack as a ‘glamorous’ pro sports team making a top-down effort to give lads (and lasses) an attractive option to play rugby league. 

You are absolutely right it will take a long time to bear fruit but they still need to sow the seeds first.

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Big changes ahead in our game wi th  new teams entering and it's sorely needed with the state of the game.

Like it or not we have to accept the changes these new teams will bring and breath some life into the comp.

For those who won't accept change They can always watch a game over the back fence.

 

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2 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

It probably won't take 3 generations, but it'll definitely take a while.

If I had to guess then I'd say that it'll probably be 20-35 years before they regularly produce talent, and the stars would have to align for it to take 20 years.

What Toronto and Ottawa should do is get together and come take a tour of some of the junior systems in Australia. Maybe come down for a couple of weeks during the season and check out places like Penrith, Brisbane, maybe Canberra or Newcastle as well, meet up with some of the people and talk to them about how they do things. Maybe even head over to Perth to see what they've achieved on a budget without a culture of RL and an NRL teams' backing.

It'd be a good way to get an idea of what goes into it, form some relationships that could come in handy later on, and who knows maybe if they are willing they might be able to convince a few guys to come over and give them a hand.

Firstly you puzzle me GD, you say "come take a tour of some of the junior systems in Australia" then you follow up with "convince a few guys to come over and give them a hand" which I take means in Canada, where exactly are you?

Irrespective, it is quite refreshing really to talk to someone who realises that there is no magic wand to wave and Canada will start producing players, on these pages there were those who when Toronto came on the scene believed that Canada would be putting their nationals into SL teams in 10 years, some of the more stupid were even quoting 5 years. 

Perez and Nobel - a guy who should really know better - were instrumental in making people believe that this action could be fast tracked, and Perez is still spouting the same stuff talking about producing player's in numbers in a generation (which I take to be 20 years) but he realises he has a gullible audience who will believe anything.

I have previously described Rugby League as an organic product, it has to be given the right conditions to germinate, fed the right stuff, nutured, managed, adaptive rotation, harvested and distributed, so the first thing is to find enough seeds to sow, and the farmers to plant them.

I will still maintain my 3 generation theory to produce players in suitable numbers of SL enable player's, the convertion rate is at least 500 to 1 if not more from kids first picking up a ball, Canada has a job of huge proportions to initiate, set up through all the factions of promoting the best kids to each of the elite levels required to accomplish the best of the best they have to prove themselves at the very top level.

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Countless Rugby Union players have had successful Rugby League careers, I see no reason why a candian 7's rugby union rep who has the interest and a desire to learn how to play Rugby League could easily be up to UK Championship standard in a season or two. Look at Union signings to League like Mathew Ridge went from All Black 2nd string Fullback to Manly In NRL then 6 games later was in The Kiwis Test side. Brian Carney was playing Gallic Football in Ireland, Tried rugby league at University made Irish Students side and got signed to Super League had a successful career. Gareth Thomas who changed codes later in career was reasonably successful at rugby league.

I also dont buy into it taking 20 years to produce a Canadian Super League player I think Quinn Ngawati maybe the 1st homegrown Canadian to play Super League Later this year. Obviously it may take 20 years to set up an environment and  culture in Canada that produces many Canadian Super League standard players. If you had 50 talented teenage athletes in Canada interested in a Rugby League career in a good development program with a pathway to the Championship and then Super League anything is possible.

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29 minutes ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Countless Rugby Union players have had successful Rugby League careers, I see no reason why a candian 7's rugby union rep who has the interest and a desire to learn how to play Rugby League could easily be up to UK Championship standard in a season or two. Look at Union signings to League like Mathew Ridge went from All Black 2nd string Fullback to Manly In NRL then 6 games later was in The Kiwis Test side. Brian Carney was playing Gallic Football in Ireland, Tried rugby league at University made Irish Students side and got signed to Super League had a successful career. Gareth Thomas who changed codes later in career was reasonably successful at rugby league.

I also dont buy into it taking 20 years to produce a Canadian Super League player I think Quinn Ngawati maybe the 1st homegrown Canadian to play Super League Later this year. Obviously it may take 20 years to set up an environment and  culture in Canada that produces many Canadian Super League standard players. If you had 50 talented teenage athletes in Canada interested in a Rugby League career in a good development program with a pathway to the Championship and then Super League anything is possible.

Is Quinn Ngawati back playing league?

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4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

You’re trying to make this seem awfully harder than it really is. The lads come from union and other sports. They train at a GTA rugby club. They play each other. The volunteers are the CRL and expats. The cost is low but a Wolfpack GTA development officer would help.

Why would "lads" come from union and other sports, what's in it for them? Even if they do come you're not going to be able to get the ones worth having without opening the check book. 

Why would a Rugby club let them use their facilities, what's in it for them?

If they're going to play each other every week then why bother, the standard of play will probably be low, and it'll be stale after a couple of weeks anyway.

Do the CRL and expats have the qualifications necessary to be allowed to work with children? Can they even get them?  Are there even enough of them willing to do it? Also what are their qualifications, they played RL a few times so they know how to develop players?

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

To be clear this wouldn’t be a full academy churning out pro players from the start but a juniors programme with the potential to become an academy.

Ultimately it’s about the Wolfpack as a ‘glamorous’ pro sports team making a top-down effort to give lads (and lasses) an attractive option to play rugby league. 

At best what you are suggesting is a BS token training camp for guys in their late teens to early twenties that are failing in RU, i.e. you are trying to create something to pose as a juniors system.

It has no potential to grow into anything as it'd be built on foundations of sand, and as such it'd be a waste of every bodies time and money. 

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

You are absolutely right it will take a long time to bear fruit but they still need to sow the seeds first.

Yes they do need to plant seeds (for all we know they already have BTW), but what you are suggesting wouldn't be planting seeds it'd be a waste of every bodies time and money.

If you want to plant real seeds then hire an experienced development officer, pair him with a small team of guys that know the local sports scene and have had experience working in and with local school sports, maybe get somebody that's had some experience in marketing, then give them a reasonable budget and let them do their thing.

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3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Firstly you puzzle me GD, you say "come take a tour of some of the junior systems in Australia" then you follow up with "convince a few guys to come over and give them a hand" which I take means in Canada, where exactly are you?

I'm in Australia, I just meant that they might be able to convince a few experienced guys in Australia to go help out in Canada.

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Perez and Nobel - a guy who should really know better - were instrumental in making people believe that this action could be fast tracked, and Perez is still spouting the same stuff talking about producing player's in numbers in a generation (which I take to be 20 years) but he realises he has a gullible audience who will believe anything.

To be fair there probably are ways that they could fast track getting Canadian players up to a professional standard.

For example, they could organise development deals with clubs in Australia and England where they (the Wolfpack and Aces) sign players from other sports (RU, Canadian football, etc) then send them over to play for those clubs for a year or two to develop. If they dealt with clubs with a strong history of developing players, and sent guys over in numbers, then they'd get some guys coming back good enough to play, it'd cost them an arm and a leg though.

But you are right, there's no way that you can fast track a proper juniors system on the ground in Canada. That'll have to grow on it's own, and it's going to take time.

Edited by The Great Dane

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1 hour ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Countless Rugby Union players have had successful Rugby League careers, I see no reason why a candian 7's rugby union rep who has the interest and a desire to learn how to play Rugby League could easily be up to UK Championship standard in a season or two.

7's players would be their best bet to quickly convert into RL players.

But there're still a bunch of questions that they'd have to answer though: What standard are Canadian 7's players? Are any of them going to be interested? How much are they going to cost? Is the cost worth it? Where are they going to play for that season or two while they learn the sport? 

Also that isn't producing a player though a juniors system, it's converting a professional athlete into a RL player. There's a big difference.

BTW, if Quinn Ngawati plays SL it'll only be because the Wolfpack are desperate, I'm not knocking him for that, just being frank. 

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It would be a lot easier to fast track canadians as a central operation than it would for Toronto to do it themselves. Especially now Ottawa are in the league. 

What do you mean by central?

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29 minutes ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Countless Rugby Union players have had successful Rugby League careers, I see no reason why a candian 7's rugby union rep who has the interest and a desire to learn how to play Rugby League could easily be up to UK Championship standard in a season or two. Look at Union signings to League like Mathew Ridge went from All Black 2nd string Fullback to Manly In NRL then 6 games later was in The Kiwis Test side. Brian Carney was playing Gallic Football in Ireland, Tried rugby league at University made Irish Students side and got signed to Super League had a successful career. Gareth Thomas who changed codes later in career was reasonably successful at rugby league.

I also dont buy into it taking 20 years to produce a Canadian Super League player I think Quinn Ngawati maybe the 1st homegrown Canadian to play Super League Later this year. Obviously it may take 20 years to set up an environment and  culture in Canada that produces many Canadian Super League standard players. If you had 50 talented teenage athletes in Canada interested in a Rugby League career in a good development program with a pathway to the Championship and then Super League anything is possible.

Hi Kiwi, could you please give us an outline road map how you forsee - your words - "A good development programme with a pathway".

For over 3 years now people have been stating on these pages in exactly the same manner as your goodself what should happen, how it should start and what will the end result will be, BUT as you and others have done leave out all the very important bits, I could write a 50 point plan for the intermediary functions and that would probably not be enough, new questions will always derive from the answers that are given.

I am not having a go at you personally, there are many others on here who dream up an end result without any mechanics to get the machine moving, if everything was so uncomplicated life would be so much easier but it ain't, I have thought long and hard about it and come to the conclusion that it will be over twice as long as the 20 years you "don't buy into" so my challenge to you and anyone else who would care to correct my way of thinking is explain in detail how you will acheive and arrive at your goal, so please produce a guided walkthrough, with logical step by step instructions how different levels of an elite programme can be built, where will the finance be founded, a big consideration because the time scale you qoute has not got time to evolve naturally it has to hit the ground running which you can appreciate will cost a lot of money, there are lots of other directions I can point you down which will have to be taken into consideration, but I won't do that, I am intrigued to see your plan so I will await your or any others response.

Please don't go down the path that Mr Perez walks, he makes far reaching statements of player development but never expands on them. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It would be a lot easier to fast track canadians as a central operation than it would for Toronto to do it themselves. Especially now Ottawa are in the league. 

Well go on then, tell me all about your "Central Operation"?

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As excited as I am about some of these developments, I think it would be useful if we took some learnings from what TWP have done already and started to have some requirements of these teams.

1 - We need clubs to be based in their community. I understand why TWP have done some of what they have, but I'm not sure we want to add an Ottawa team based in Manchester and a New York team based in Liverpool. This can work for early stages and during the proof of concept stage, but I think we need far greater integration into home towns.

2 - There needs to be a clear plan around youth development. Even if that is work in schools etc. or setting up junior clubs, there has to be activity and a plan. 

I think the other things around funding, tv rights, salary caps etc. should be relatively minor things that can be worked through, but I do think we should be making sure the development and foundation of the club is authentic. 

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13 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

BTW, if Quinn Ngawati plays SL it'll only be because the Wolfpack are desperate, I'm not knocking him for that, just being frank. 

I don't know if you have been keeping track of Toronto and it's intentions and solutions since they came into being, especially with their "hundreds of ready made for Rugby League North American Athletes" so much so that they set out on a programme to entice and audition as many of these "Athlete's" as possible setting up evaluation try outs in a number of locations, it was lauded by many and there was a lot of video's shown on this platform, the reason I have brought that up, is that as far as I am aware Mr Ngawati was the only one of that programme to advance and that was over three years ago. 

Has Perez given up on this strategy with his new entity?

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35 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

As a separate, specific development operation rather than an offshoot of the pro-club 

It's not as simple as just telling Toronto to sign some canadians, there needs to be a pathway from the bottom to the top, from getting kids to play for fun, the youth leagues, to funneling those best youngsters to a pro environment, to places for those players to play. 

There are things that would accelerate the development of players in new  areas that simply arent within Torontos gift to do

That is exactly what I keep asking Scotchy, how is it going to be done.

You have published the Headlines but nothing to read about.

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1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

If you want to plant real seeds then hire an experienced development officer, pair him with a small team of guys that know the local sports scene and have had experience working in and with local school sports, maybe get somebody that's had some experience in marketing, then give them a reasonable budget and let them do their thing.

OK, good. Now we’re getting somewhere. 

What would the development officers do? Get a few dozen lads together to train and play, possibly at a rugby club(s), playing each other and growing from there, perhaps?

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