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Ottawa Aces (Merged Threads)

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2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

I said a minimum,  not everyone.  So luckily your point is irrelevant. And we have to be clear about what we are trying to achieve. If we are having clubs from outside UK  in the pyramid we need to think of the best way to do it. 

Having a ringfence with minimum home grown requirements takes away the excuse of not developing players whilst still allowing them to bring in stars.

Ringfencing some teams whilst other's could be relegated is a sham, no starter it has been done before and was learned from, which is why it is not being done now.

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Why would it be a sham? It doesnt close the door to championship clubs, helps grow the game and avoid a wolfpack full time out fit dominating the championship. 

Also can you send me a link to these comments by Mr Pérez. 

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51 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Ringfencing some teams whilst other's could be relegated is a sham, no starter it has been done before and was learned from, which is why it is not being done now.

You mean Les Catalans? Now commercially the 2nd biggest club in the competition?

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6 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Perhaps I wasnt clear but that was kind of the point I'm making.

Once we get to 16 teams, millions has been pumped in to France and canada and the US (and somewhere else) getting to 16 teams in SL (in this context) means that expansion 'has work'.

Right now we are at 2 sides, ottawa cant get to SL until 2023 minimum, nyc (likely) 2024 minimum, the other side is likely 2025 at the very minimum. 

So we are looking at likely not the next tv contract but the one after that. One with us having multiple overseas teams in SL for 5 or 6 years. That world looks a lot different to this one and what are considerations then arent considerations now. It's just a different world.

We are never going to get to that point where its implemented. A world where we have 6 overseas clubs just doesnt have P+R. Cant do. 

Toronto after 5 years will be wanting tv money and you would hope contributing tv money. A Toulouse and les Catalans SL will want and hopefully be getting French TV money. NYC american tv money etc etc etc. 

Then you have sponsors who are sponsoring the league because of those teams, commercial staff selling a world wide sport. 

6 teams (i would argue even 4 or 5, maybe even 3 in a 12 team league) has hit a critical mass where your exist as an international league, that's your identity and the international teams become too valuable to lose. 

It locks the game in. Once you hit that critical mass you have to exploit those opportunities or the costs are too big to sustain. Once you start positioning yourself to exploit those opportunities you need them to keep going and repositioning yourself to be sustainable without them is dangerous, often damaging and can be expensive. 

This is a big frustration with the way the game has dipped its toe in and not committed. The die has already been cast and SL doesnt control whether or not we hit that critical mass yet right now, through almost sheer bloody mindedness, we are taking on the costs but refuse to position ourselves for the benefits.

 

Very well put, but in this idealistic utopian league you so relish, please tell me where are the player's going to come from to populate all these teams, I do keep pressing that question but no one wants to give a logical answer, if you have sat down and worked out how your suggestion and thought process that in your words "locks the game in" then you must also have done a mental process of how this league will get there, its no good building the Skeleton without knowing how to put the meat on the bones.

These new teams if they get to SL will be the winners but to make room for them there has to be losers, but for some of the teams who may be considered among those who could be replaced those owners of their clubs will have to release their star player's for these clubs to acheive your ambition, perhap's Toronto tried to sign some players from SL this season, I don't know if that is the case the evidence that they are understrength for the job in hand says if they did not do so they should have done, but did they and were refused? all speculation of course.

You also say P&R is not a fit in your process, how do these teams get into SL if there is no corridor for any team to be relegated and others to be promoted, if it is going to be by invitation and the league is going to be increased in number, then that compounds the problem of a suitable standard amount of SL player's, many a coach and club official has already expressed that we barely have enough player's to furnish 12 teams including overseas player's, we have a SC in situ so it is not going to be to easy enticing even the journeymen of the NRL over without even contemplating the big earners.

We have had a few digs at each other, lets forget that please, explain to this doubter how what you suggest is achievable  - warts and all.

Edited by Harry Stottle
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So will Ottawa get the Wolfpack treatment on here with huge rambling threads going nowhere?

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11 minutes ago, Copa said:

So will Ottawa get the Wolfpack treatment on here with huge rambling threads going nowhere?

Well there be New York too. 

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16 minutes ago, Copa said:

So will Ottawa get the Wolfpack treatment on here with huge rambling threads going nowhere?

Only if people post in them!

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28 minutes ago, Copa said:

So will Ottawa get the Wolfpack treatment on here with huge rambling threads going nowhere?

Yep, I'm sure they will...

but will that mean that there'll be less heat on the Wolfpack as everyone moves on to Ottawa and then NYC?? ;o

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52 minutes ago, mrfranco said:

Yep, I'm sure they will...

but will that mean that there'll be less heat on the Wolfpack as everyone moves on to Ottawa and then NYC?? ;o

 

1 hour ago, winnyason said:

Well there be New York too. 

 

1 hour ago, Copa said:

So will Ottawa get the Wolfpack treatment on here with huge rambling threads going nowhere?

Or are all the Stepford wives coming out in unison again, back slapping, drum beating, flag waving, cheering on the dancing girls, and say let's do it, we don't know how we will do it but who gives a shot, let's do it anyway.

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If the people behind Ottawa have any sense, they’ll keep their money to themselves and stay the hell away from Rugby League. 

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10 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Very well put, but in this idealistic utopian league you so relish, please tell me where are the player's going to come from to populate all these teams, I do keep pressing that question but no one wants to give a logical answer, if you have sat down and worked out how your suggestion and thought process that in your words "locks the game in" then you must also have done a mental process of how this league will get there, its no good building the Skeleton without knowing how to put the meat on the bones.

These new teams if they get to SL will be the winners but to make room for them there has to be losers, but for some of the teams who may be considered among those who could be replaced those owners of their clubs will have to release their star player's for these clubs to acheive your ambition, perhap's Toronto tried to sign some players from SL this season, I don't know if that is the case the evidence that they are understrength for the job in hand says if they did not do so they should have done, but did they and were refused? all speculation of course.

You also say P&R is not a fit in your process, how do these teams get into SL if there is no corridor for any team to be relegated and others to be promoted, if it is going to be by invitation and the league is going to be increased in number, then that compounds the problem of a suitable standard amount of SL player's, many a coach and club official has already expressed that we barely have enough player's to furnish 12 teams including overseas player's, we have a SC in situ so it is not going to be to easy enticing even the journeymen of the NRL over without even contemplating the big earners.

We have had a few digs at each other, lets forget that please, explain to this doubter how what you suggest is achievable  - warts and all.

Where would they come from if we expanded the comp to add.leigh and Halifax?

Abolition if P+R would allow us to focus on developing young players. We can insist that french teams have x amount of french players, we can limit the amount of players Toronto et al take from the uk pool. 

Without P+R it's just a bad faith argument for a Leigh team full of products from wigan and saints and leeds et al replaces a Toronto side in the same position 

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7 hours ago, Johnoco said:

If the people behind Ottawa have any sense, they’ll keep their money to themselves and stay the hell away from Rugby League. 

Very true!

From what I hear, the board are all very dedicated rugby league fans. That can be good or bad.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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9 hours ago, Copa said:

So will Ottawa get the Wolfpack treatment on here with huge rambling threads going nowhere?

Just like any club , they will be scrutinized , and questions asked 

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49 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Where would they come from if we expanded the comp to add.leigh and Halifax?

Abolition if P+R would allow us to focus on developing young players. We can insist that french teams have x amount of french players, we can limit the amount of players Toronto et al take from the uk pool. 

Without P+R it's just a bad faith argument for a Leigh team full of products from wigan and saints and leeds et al replaces a Toronto side in the same position 

Is Harry saying expand the number of SL clubs ?

 

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15 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Very true!

From what I hear, the board are all very dedicated rugby league fans. That can be good or bad.

It’s probably a bad thing overall as they are more likely to accept the shoddy treatment and practices that RL gives out to would be enthusiasts. They would be better off spending the money on a homeless shelter or something because it’s totally wasted on RL. 

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8 hours ago, Johnoco said:

If the people behind Ottawa have any sense, they’ll keep their money to themselves and stay the hell away from Rugby League. 

There are not many sports who will give a place at the top table for such a paltry amount of investment. 

I don't know why we are so embarrassed about asking TWP to pay for stuff. Maybe it is the Britishness in us, but we know in North America franchise fees are normal, yet some of our fans want us to pay them to join our league. 

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40 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Is Harry saying expand the number of SL clubs ?

 

Whether we expand or replace is kind of irrelevant.

If our issue is not enough players coming through then constantly replacing one club who may produce players with one that doesnt isnt going to help. 

I'd also add that our expansion in player pool has come from wales and france, if anything its contracting in the heartlands

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40 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Whether we expand or replace is kind of irrelevant.

If our issue is not enough players coming through then constantly replacing one club who may produce players with one that doesnt isnt going to help. 

I'd also add that our expansion in player pool has come from wales and france, if anything its contracting in the heartlands

Well it is , expand creates a supply issue , replace doesn't , certainly not to the same degree , and as you've pointed out in the past , it is subjective 

All clubs do have a responsibility to do what they can to encourage participation locally , as ultimately that is where players come from , if it is contracting in the heartlands then that needs reversing 

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Where would they come from if we expanded the comp to add.leigh and Halifax?

Abolition if P+R would allow us to focus on developing young players. We can insist that french teams have x amount of french players, we can limit the amount of players Toronto et al take from the uk pool. 

Without P+R it's just a bad faith argument for a Leigh team full of products from wigan and saints and leeds et al replaces a Toronto side in the same position 

Sorry Scotchy, but that is not really answering the qustion(s), you so eloquently put together your presentation but having been put on the spot of how it is achievable you have not elaborated, your 'road map' to arriving at your destination is akin to the ones of finding the promised lands adorned with all their ritches of 'El Dorado' or 'Atlantis' they don't exist, and if they do no one knows how to get there.

From your first line you are on the defensive, it was not about Leigh or Halifax or Fev et al, it was your vision of a number of teams from foriegn shores located in virgin territories that in your eyes are the future of our game, I asked simply "how do we get there" what are the mechanics you will employ to make your goal viable, workable and practicable?

You are not on your own though, Mr Parksider (where is he these days, well I hope) posed the same questions but being devoid of reasonable constructed answers he was attacked and ridiculed by those who had as much idea as pinning the tail on the donkey as offering anything constructive in their arguments.

I concluded my request with asking for your thoughts 'warts and all' you must have some idea of how you envisage we arrive at where you want to take us, if it is a very radical solution in that something has to give and there will be casualties please share, you can do much better than the answer you gave, go back read again both your very good address for the future and my request for the detail(s) to accomplish your end goal. Pretend we are in the boardroom you are the up and coming young executive who presents some very far-reaching fundamental ideas of how we can improve the company, I am the MD who say's "I like it" how do we make it possible?

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31 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry Scotchy, but that is not really answering the qustion(s), you so eloquently put together your presentation but having been put on the spot of how it is achievable you have not elaborated, your 'road map' to arriving at your destination is akin to the ones of finding the promised lands adorned with all their ritches of 'El Dorado' or 'Atlantis' they don't exist, and if they do no one knows how to get there.

From your first line you are on the defensive, it was not about Leigh or Halifax or Fev et al, it was your vision of a number of teams from foriegn shores located in virgin territories that in your eyes are the future of our game, I asked simply "how do we get there" what are the mechanics you will employ to make your goal viable, workable and practicable?

You are not on your own though, Mr Parksider (where is he these days, well I hope) posed the same questions but being devoid of reasonable constructed answers he was attacked and ridiculed by those who had as much idea as pinning the tail on the donkey as offering anything constructive in their arguments.

I concluded my request with asking for your thoughts 'warts and all' you must have some idea of how you envisage we arrive at where you want to take us, if it is a very radical solution in that something has to give and there will be casualties please share, you can do much better than the answer you gave, go back read again both your very good address for the future and my request for the detail(s) to accomplish your end goal. Pretend we are in the boardroom you are the up and coming young executive who presents some very far-reaching fundamental ideas of how we can improve the company, I am the MD who say's "I like it" how do we make it possible?

The very 1st thing SLE Ltd needs to do is wake up & realise that they are a Company selling live Sport. 

The Product is the game of Rugby League. 

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15 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

You mean Les Catalans? Now commercially the 2nd biggest club in the competition?

I didn’t know that, have you got any details of this?

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33 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

The very 1st thing SLE Ltd needs to do is wake up & realise that they are a Company selling live Sport. 

The Product is the game of Rugby League. 

Games like last night won't attract an audience Smudger, but irrespective of that and if you are in agreement with Scotchy's way forward, please feel free and explain to us all how we get there and how it is achievable, plan it out properly, not just put these new teams in such a division and let them gain promotion or fasttrack them into SL, do we stay with 12 clubs in SL and some present incumbents are victims of circumstance, do we increase the numbers in SL by 2 or 4 and in doing so how do we populate these new teams considering good judges tell us there are barely enough player's of the required quality to perform at SL level at present, are the logistics of having clubs from areas of inclement weather sustainable in our league set up or do we change our structure to accomadate them, there are so many answers to be given Smudger and more questions will emanate from those answers.

We can also do what seems to be the popular solution from those pro NA advocates on this site and that is to change the rules we have in place to accomodate these new clubs, having the tail wag the dog so to speak.

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3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

ou are not on your own though, Mr Parksider (where is he these days, well I hope) posed the same questions but being devoid of reasonable constructed answers he was attacked and ridiculed by those who had as much idea as pinning the tail on the donkey as offering anything constructive in their arguments.

That's not true at at all. Many, many people gave plenty of well thought out arguments. He chose to ignore those and continue to repeat repeat repeat things until other gave up. In fact I believe he was the one more often throwing insults and names.

You may use the same "wall of text" approach as him but don't start bending the truth the same way as well,

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14 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

That's not true at at all. Many, many people gave plenty of well thought out arguments. He chose to ignore those and continue to repeat repeat repeat things until other gave up. In fact I believe he was the one more often throwing insults and names.

You may use the same "wall of text" approach as him but don't start bending the truth the same way as well,

Thanks, I will take that on board.

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