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My husband refereed a Super League game tonight and was abused

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And Robert Hicks:

1664773104_WinswithRobertHicks2010-2020.png.5b7a84225adec701d9b071c4225bb568.png

The results for the 3 referees are almost identical. In fact, if we'd actually beaten Hull FC last week, James Child's record would be W15 L29, - even closer.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY!!!

edit

P.S. Maybe a more valid conclusion would be that Daryl Powell is a better coach than Chris Chester, as without the recent run of Cas results, James Child would actually have a better record than the others.

Edited by Wholly Trinity

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OK, one more then I really need to get some work done...748449625_WinsComparison3Refs.png.33748df810585e3f5b68dfeafa4b08f8.png

So, If Wakefield hadn't been so rubbish against Cas Since 2014: Played 18 , Won 1, Lost 17)

For which the referees were:

C. Kendall 4
G. Hewer 2
G. Stokes 1
J. Child 5
J. Cobb 2
P. Bentham 1
R. Hicks 3*
  18

* one win

and we hadn't already lost 2 this season under James Child (one on Golden Point and the other the regular mauling by the Tigers)

The stats would be even closer.

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12 hours ago, Dave T said:

I do think we need to be careful over what we are challenging here. Appealing decisions, debating plays and calls is part of the fun for many. Abuse, name calling etc is out and should be clamped down on. 

Thinking a ref got a decision wrong is very different to being abusive to the ref. 

During the game, we are all, well most of us, are guilty of disagreeing with a decision we feel has gone against our teams, it's part of the nature of being a partisan supporter, the problem for me is, when that spills over after the game, or as we are seeing at times, before a game, accept the decisions and accept that sometimes your team wasn't good enough.

Example of this is at Huddersfield Academy games, we are a small but loyal bunch at Huddersfield, we are also, like most fans, partisan, sometimes we don't always agree with the decisions they make, we sometimes think we've had a rough ride etc, but we understand that the referee's are usually young, inexperienced and learning the game, and therefore we always make sure we applaud the officials off the pitch and tell them they had a good game.

Sometimes they may think otherwise and be disappointed with their performance, but for us, it's about sportsmanship, we also always applaud the opposition of the field too, you just need to control your emotions when things don't go well, for a lot of people, and sadly, some on this thread they just can't seem to do that, and carry on scapegoating a referee for weeks afterwards.

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7 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

And Robert Hicks:

1664773104_WinswithRobertHicks2010-2020.png.5b7a84225adec701d9b071c4225bb568.png

The results for the 3 referees are almost identical. In fact, if we'd actually beaten Hull FC last week, James Child's record would be W15 L29, - even closer.

THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY!!!

edit

P.S. Maybe a more valid conclusion would be that Daryl Powell is a better coach than Chris Chester, as without the recent run of Cas results, James Child would actually have a better record than the others.

Or the other conclusion is that all refs are equally biased against Wakefield Trinity....... just a joke before anyone replies.

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8 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

As a comparison, here's Phil Bentham:

617585479_WinswithPhilBentham2009-2017.png.14332c25be6c5f93a87df754f0b53bd6.png

That's quite an effort. What conclusions can you draw from your study? 

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1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

Singling out win/loss ratios because of who reffed the games is as pointless as it is ridiculous. There’s myriad factors as to why teams lose games

It is useful to dispel what looks like a pretty widely held belief that a certain referee effects results though 

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3 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Singling out win/loss ratios because of who reffed the games is as pointless as it is ridiculous. There’s myriad factors as to why teams lose games

It's not pointless in the fact that it proves to those who don't believe it that referees are not biased against any particular team.

EDIT .. Dunbar must have been writing his reply above as I was writing mine.   Great minds, etc, etc ! (or "Fools seldom differ !)

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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18 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

EDIT .. Dunbar must have been writing his reply above as I was writing mine.   Great minds, etc, etc ! (or "Fools seldom differ !)

Let's go with the former... nobody will object!

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45 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It is useful to dispel what looks like a pretty widely held belief that a certain referee effects results though 

Well, ok I’ll give you that but I think my point is that people thinking that refs are biased against their team is utterly ridiculous and ultimately pretty insulting to referees.

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1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

Singling out win/loss ratios because of who reffed the games is as pointless as it is ridiculous. There’s myriad factors as to why teams lose games

Which was the point.

As I tried to suggest in the posts. 

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A big problem is that ref's are human. They can make mistakes and I would think that rightly or wrongly there is a bit of crowd influence on their decision making even if they are not aware of it. Some may give an easy penalty against to show they will not be intimidated and others may give one for to take a bit of sting out of the game.

Its only human nature.But a lot of fans seem to think the ref's not  allowed to be human .

The ref's could help themselves a bit if they occasionally gave interviews something similar to a john wells post match interview. It would need careful questioning but it would be interesting to hear the thought process of a decision. It may also the referee's to appear more human. At the minute there is no interaction with the refs and spectators but whenever I have spoken to one they seem happy to have a chat.

The very independance and aloofness the ref's portray does them no favours even though we know why they do it.

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45 minutes ago, super major said:

A big problem is that ref's are human. They can make mistakes and I would think that rightly or wrongly there is a bit of crowd influence on their decision making even if they are not aware of it. Some may give an easy penalty against to show they will not be intimidated and others may give one for to take a bit of sting out of the game.

Its only human nature.But a lot of fans seem to think the ref's not  allowed to be human .

The ref's could help themselves a bit if they occasionally gave interviews something similar to a john wells post match interview. It would need careful questioning but it would be interesting to hear the thought process of a decision. It may also the referee's to appear more human. At the minute there is no interaction with the refs and spectators but whenever I have spoken to one they seem happy to have a chat.

The very independance and aloofness the ref's portray does them no favours even though we know why they do it.

Certainly not a post-match interview because that's why coaches and players sometimes say wrong things as they have not had time to assess situations in the game being being asked to make a comment ... and all Sky wants is something controversial for their panel to talk about.

Maybe occasionally having a referee on the Super League Show might be OK when he and the interviewer have had time to look back at the game.

 

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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I've not read all the posts on this thread so forgive me if i'm repeating something elsewhere.

It's not just the abuse the refs get in front of their family, for me it's equally bad when the fans abuse the opposition players. Case in point 1st game of this season. TO v York, there was some ###### from York yelling at a player that he hoped he died from this Virus thing, 10yards from where the WAGS and their kids were sat. This players girlfriend was sat with her 2 yr old on her lap and could hear every word.

It's not nice... but other than calling them out on it, it won't stop them. Maybe showing him up in front of his mates would help, but it would have to be her doing it and not me to make it effective.

The sport has to heal itself, it's the same as with the racists etc. unless the other supporters call them out , they will just think it's normal and carry on.  I'm tempted to video some of the abuse and send it to the appropriate club CEO, but targeting individuals seems petty to me. I'm loathe to get someone banned for life following a sport they love.

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1 hour ago, kiggy said:

I've not read all the posts on this thread so forgive me if i'm repeating something elsewhere.

It's not just the abuse the refs get in front of their family, for me it's equally bad when the fans abuse the opposition players. Case in point 1st game of this season. TO v York, there was some ###### from York yelling at a player that he hoped he died from this Virus thing, 10yards from where the WAGS and their kids were sat. This players girlfriend was sat with her 2 yr old on her lap and could hear every word.

It's not nice... but other than calling them out on it, it won't stop them. Maybe showing him up in front of his mates would help, but it would have to be her doing it and not me to make it effective.

The sport has to heal itself, it's the same as with the racists etc. unless the other supporters call them out , they will just think it's normal and carry on.  I'm tempted to video some of the abuse and send it to the appropriate club CEO, but targeting individuals seems petty to me. I'm loathe to get someone banned for life following a sport they love.

Abuse about everything and everybody has been on the increase for many years and most certainly as people have become more used to "making their voice heard" due to the ease of the internet while another increase has also been the foul language used by many people - what used to be frowned upon has certainly now become more commonplace and with many just using certain phrases without even thinking it might be wrong or offensive to others.

Furthermore the increase in the "compensation claim society" has seen a vast increase in people always wanting to find fault or lay the blame for anything on others rather than taking responsibility for their own faults or mistakes (hence blaming the referee when their team hasn't been good enough to win a match).

Therefore, despite all the words of support in this thread, I do feel that such abuse will always continue.

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2 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

That the result of a game is totally independent of the official appointed?

fair enough. The referees might be glad to hear that. 

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12 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

fair enough. The referees might be glad to hear that. 

Doubt a lot of the fans will, or will simply ignore that !!

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2 minutes ago, daz39 said:

Doubt a lot of the fans will, or will simply ignore that !!

I just think the ref's could do with a bit of positive feedback.

The ''fans'' you speak of are not fans at all, but depending on how many there are, they are a huge millstone around the games neck.

Until we get them off the terraces, (or change their behaviour) we'll struggle to grow crowd numbers. 

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11 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I just think the ref's could do with a bit of positive feedback.

The ''fans'' you speak of are not fans at all, but depending on how many there are, they are a huge millstone around the games neck.

Until we get them off the terraces, (or change their behaviour) we'll struggle to grow crowd numbers. 

At Huuddersfield games there's about 4,700 of them !

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17 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I just think the ref's could do with a bit of positive feedback.

The ''fans'' you speak of are not fans at all, but depending on how many there are, they are a huge millstone around the games neck.

Until we get them off the terraces, (or change their behaviour) we'll struggle to grow crowd numbers. 

Despite all the positive comments on here regrading referees, the attitude towards them by the overall majority will never really change. All that most people want is for their team to win, no matter how. They also don't want to accept that another team were better than them on the day and hence they look for another reason why they lost. The same with coaches, etc ... if they just admit that the opposition were better then they might themselves get some grief (and be sacked) for not being good enough and therefore they blame the referee to hopefully take pressure off themselves.

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59 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Despite all the positive comments on here regrading referees, the attitude towards them by the overall majority will never really change. All that most people want is for their team to win, no matter how. They also don't want to accept that another team were better than them on the day and hence they look for another reason why they lost. The same with coaches, etc ... if they just admit that the opposition were better then they might themselves get some grief (and be sacked) for not being good enough and therefore they blame the referee to hopefully take pressure off themselves.

Which is why the authorities, the media and the clubs should be doing everything they can to alter the mindset of people.

I do agree that sometimes hearing a referee talk could alleviate some of this, hearing a referee say that they can mistakes and it does play on their minds when they do could humanise them a bit more.

At the Giants supporters association last year we had match officials Tara Jones and Michael Mannifield come and talk to us and they were very forthright, honest and critical when they needed to be, so much so that most of the people in the room all commented about how much more they will respect a referee and how their opinions of ref's have changed.

If we could get that happening across the board then maybe, just maybe it might start to change?

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36 minutes ago, meast said:

Which is why the authorities, the media and the clubs should be doing everything they can to alter the mindset of people.

I do agree that sometimes hearing a referee talk could alleviate some of this, hearing a referee say that they can mistakes and it does play on their minds when they do could humanise them a bit more.

At the Giants supporters association last year we had match officials Tara Jones and Michael Mannifield come and talk to us and they were very forthright, honest and critical when they needed to be, so much so that most of the people in the room all commented about how much more they will respect a referee and how their opinions of ref's have changed.

If we could get that happening across the board then maybe, just maybe it might start to change?

I do agree that if a referee makes an error then it will probably play on his mind a bit, just as it would would with anybody in any walk of life who thinks they have made a mistake. However I doubt if that would effect their judgement of any particular incident in a match just to "even things up". If they started to do that then they would risk also upsetting the fans/coaches/players of the other team by giving a decision which was not fully warranted and would also not be viewed in a good light by those who are responsible for making future appointments ... and it is they who the referees will be more bothered about pleasing.

The talks by referees that you mention are certainly not a new concept as I have attended several by various referees over many, many years (Going back many years I have attended such talks by Oldham referees including Dickie Thomas, Sam Shepherd, Alan Burke). However, it has appeared to me that those supporters who attend such meetings are usually people who despite having an interest in one particular club also have a overall general interest in Rugby League. Yet many others who simply watch their team through rose-tinted glasses are just not interested in hearing another point of view and don't bother to attend.  Those people will never change their views.

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20 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Certainly not a post-match interview because that's why coaches and players sometimes say wrong things as they have not had time to assess situations in the game being being asked to make a comment ... and all Sky wants is something controversial for their panel to talk about.

Maybe occasionally having a referee on the Super League Show might be OK when he and the interviewer have had time to look back at the game.

 

Absolutely. And maybe they should go into print regularly where their points could be more considered. As you mentioned on a previous post many, particularly the more myopic, who most need to improve their knowledge won`t be affected directly, but the wider the dissemination of accurate information the better the chance of a change of culture. Liaison between officials and media wouldn`t go amiss either, for we often have the blind leading the blind.

The tackle and ruck need to better understood. Without again getting into the thorny perennial of the PTB, it`s much more complicated than the vague comments of "holding down", "lying on", "too long in the tackle", from Dave Woods et al allow for. Sometimes when a ruck penalty is called they don`t address it at all, as though it were a random process ("Ah well, it`s been given, on we go"). Listening to the ref`s calls to the players during a TV game is currently the only way to understand the RL ruck. Since they are better educators than the commentators we should hear more from our officials.

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