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17 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

When you mention North American clubs being a drain on player resources, this would be, if they were successful, from the top level. But we need to distinguish between the inherent quality of players and the quality of the games as a spectator sport. The best 34 players in the world might produce a mediocre game for spectators, whereas a different 34 players, none of whom would be good enough to play at a higher level, can produce a better game to watch. Watching the games of amateurs, women, juniors often brings home to me how big an RL fan I am more than watching SL or NRL. 

There are always relative standards between players at different levels, however many there are overall. We should concentrate on increasing player numbers in all territories and not fret about the inherent quality, if they`re playing RL it will be good to watch if people understand how to watch it. Our problem is less the number of players, much more the lack of large audiences with sufficient knowledge to enjoy watching the game.

You are preaching to the converted U.P. I have always said that at whatever level if there are two teams of a similar standing it can and usually does result in something very pleasing to watch, after spending many years in the community game I have watched and been involved in games at all levels from the tiny tots to age related International games, and everthing inbetween, plus all the factions of the paid ranks.

The reason I say the Clubs I mention would be a drain on resources is because those who are bankrolling these clubs want to get to the top division and become competitive once they reach there, and for their investment I cannot blame them one bit, and the same can be said about the French clubs, Catalan cannot compete at SL level without all the overseas player's they employ and should Toulouse reach SL they will have to emulate Catalans approach.

In this thread, I have been having a discussion with Big Picture, he has a radical plan of how we can save our game but it involves 'raping' our clubs of their player's to populate new clubs in Big Cities either side of the Atlantic in most places he suggests they  are Virgin Rugby League areas, to accomplish his plan established clubs would have to 'give up' or release player's, somehow I cant imagine any SL bosses giving that the Green Light to proceed, and why should they, just as I said if I was an investor in a new club I would want the best for my team, that is no different  from those who invest in our established clubs either.

 

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8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I have no idea what comparison you are making between these clubs, why are wigan and hull on one side and Hudds, Cas and Salford on another? Why is Hudds owning 20% of the John Smith's relevant?

Your utterly moronic and self-evident point is utterly moronic and self-evident. Without the money they earn the clubs wouldnt have that money. I'm honestly lost as to what point you think this makes.

Really?

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes, I have no idea what group you think contains Salford, wakefield, cas, hull KR but excludes wigan and hull.

Or what point you think you are making by hypothesizing that if clubs didn't use certain revenue streams they wouldnt have that revenue. 

That's what we morons do, actually my missus agrees with you, bye.?

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Yep, good idea, your fellow City Dweller (albeit I recall you said you came from Wakefield but was a Rhino's fan) is in full flow!

Back at mum and dads in Wakefield now as it seemed pointless staying in my uni house, was born in, lived till I was 14 and am still at Uni in Leeds! But yes its tedious and doesn't help advance debate.

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When this situation does end, which will probably be next year at the earliest, I don't think anyone of the club's left standing will have much trouble in staffing their roster nor will anyone be a drain on the player pool, plenty of players, not enough clubs will be the problem.

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6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So in a nutshell, you would be asking Owner's/Chairmen/Boards to give up on something they have put a lot of time and no little money into for a long time, simply they do this because it is their passion.

Where have you got your figures from of the 'free agents' in SL, honestly I am really interested to see the names, it amounts to 8 player's per team.

No, those owners, chairman and boards wouldn't have to give up.  They would still have a level to play at suited to their small scale operations because that would be left alone.

I saw lists of players in both leagues who'd be out of contract at the end of the year sometime last summer, but I forget just where now.  It shouldn't really be surprising though, contracts tend not to be for more than 3 or sometimes 4 years and players outside the top 25 at each club are often not even getting all that much money.  On that basis about 1/4 of the total will become free agents in any given season, so 8 per team is entirely plausible.

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6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

You are preaching to the converted U.P. I have always said that at whatever level if there are two teams of a similar standing it can and usually does result in something very pleasing to watch, after spending many years in the community game I have watched and been involved in games at all levels from the tiny tots to age related International games, and everthing inbetween, plus all the factions of the paid ranks.

The reason I say the Clubs I mention would be a drain on resources is because those who are bankrolling these clubs want to get to the top division and become competitive once they reach there, and for their investment I cannot blame them one bit, and the same can be said about the French clubs, Catalan cannot compete at SL level without all the overseas player's they employ and should Toulouse reach SL they will have to emulate Catalans approach.

In this thread, I have been having a discussion with Big Picture, he has a radical plan of how we can save our game but it involves 'raping' our clubs of their player's to populate new clubs in Big Cities either side of the Atlantic in most places he suggests they  are Virgin Rugby League areas, to accomplish his plan established clubs would have to 'give up' or release player's, somehow I cant imagine any SL bosses giving that the Green Light to proceed, and why should they, just as I said if I was an investor in a new club I would want the best for my team, that is no different  from those who invest in our established clubs either.

Are NRL clubs which sign free agents away from their current clubs in the UK "raping"them then?  Of course not, because those players are free to move on if they so choose, so SL clubs wouldn't have to release such players because they become free agents when their contracts end and are then free to move in just that same way.  And if the speculation that Sky won't offer as much money next time around is true, then the disparity in the two leagues' salary caps and player salaries will widen further.

If that speculation is true, then pro RL in the northern hemisphere faces challenges not unlike those it faced in 1994 and will either have to find new sources of revenue or retrench and cut costs when that time comes.  If the only potential new sources of revenue are TV rights from other countries and new clubs in those countries are needed to attract that revenue, then a whole new structure will be needed to attract that new revenue in any case.  Adding several new clubs onto the number in SL currently would require even more new revenue to avoid cutting the amount received by each member (to say nothing of the need for more players) so that's not really a feasible option is it?

The "SL bosses" as you call them wouldn't need to give any Green Light to proceed, a new league could go ahead with or without their consent.  If you recall, the ARL was stronger, better funded and more well-connected when the SL proposal came along than British RL has ever been and despite that they were unable to block the new league from going ahead when they rejected implementing the concept themselves.  If the two sides hadn't come together after that split season it's entirely possible that SL would have won out there in the end, and outside of Australia none of the RL governing bodies has anywhere near the position which the ARL had in Australia at that time.  Realistically their only options would be either get on board and accept it or get out of the way.

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On 22/03/2020 at 13:03, ATLANTISMAN said:

I really do not want to rain on the parade here (I am 100% behind Toronto Wolfpack and any other new club) HOWEVER money is better spent on developing some of the fantastic new competitions in Europe with the right coaching set up and assistance which would cost peanuts we will be able to find some fantastic talent in Eastern Europe and other countries POLAND/SERBIA/RUSSIA/UKRAINE/CZECH REPUBLIC/TURKEY etc etc etc.

If such talent was indeed there then why aren't they currently playing in the UK?

Could it be none there are good enough for SL and no better than the players currently employed in Championship/L1?

On 22/03/2020 at 13:03, ATLANTISMAN said:

 

 

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47 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Let’s be realistic. TWP have no intention of growing the game at grassroots level. We have far more chance of seeing players from

POLAND/SERBIA/RUSSIA/UKRAINE/CZECH REPUBLIC/TURKEY

making a debut in SL than Canadians.

I gather you didn't know that the Wolfpack now have a Canadian on their roster then.

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2 hours ago, SL17 said:

Let’s be realistic. TWP have no intention of growing the game at grassroots level. We have far more chance of seeing players from

POLAND/SERBIA/RUSSIA/UKRAINE/CZECH REPUBLIC/TURKEY

making a debut in SL than Canadians.

Wanna bet?

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16 hours ago, TIWIT said:

If such talent was indeed there then why aren't they currently playing in the UK?

Could it be none there are good enough for SL and no better than the players currently employed in Championship/L1?

 

Or could it be that they can earn more not going professional? The average wage for a super league players is only £20k - £40k per year.

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46 minutes ago, North but south said:

Or could it be that they can earn more not going professional? The average wage for a super league players is only £20k - £40k per year.

If that shockingly low figure is true most clubs are spending much less than the full cap.  2.1 million £ for 25 players gives an average of 84 thousand £ each; with 5 more players not counting against the cap, even at 20 thousand £ each the average for a club spending the full cap would then be 73,333 £.

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9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

It that shockingly low figure is true most clubs are spending much less than the full cap.  2.1 million £ for 25 players gives an average of 84 thousand £ each; with 5 more players not counting against the cap, even at 20 thousand £ each the average for a club spending the full cap would then be 73,333 £.

It's the figure thr uk gov put out on their apprenticeship data, not sure how true it is but if you include all the apprenticeship and new professionals the bottom end will be much larger than the super stars on 100k

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5 hours ago, North but south said:

Or could it be that they can earn more not going professional? The average wage for a super league players is only £20k - £40k per year.

Perhaps but without knowing what wages are in that part of the world you really can't do a proper comparison.

BUT it's certainly not enough to get talented British semipros to go full-time and definitely not enough to attract the interest of any North American lads.

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5 hours ago, North but south said:

Or could it be that they can earn more not going professional? The average wage for a super league players is only £20k - £40k per year.

Are you sure that’s right?

League Express reported the other week that Dec Patton is on £85k and they don’t get much more average than him.

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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Are you sure that’s right?

League Express reported the other week that Dec Patton is on £85k and they don’t get much more average than him.

I've read before that the average SL wage is between 40 to 60k a year. Obviously that includes players on 6 figures and players on 4.

Patton's high wage may explain why he's not been taken on by any other SL club as a full time signing or loan!

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3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I've read before that the average SL wage is between 40 to 60k a year. Obviously that includes players on 6 figures and players on 4.

Patton's high wage may explain why he's not been taken on by any other SL club as a full time signing or loan!

Average wage is really easy to work out, salary cap and all that...maximum spend with 23 players (and without ANY dispensations etc) = £91,000...25+ players but with various dispensations around the same. I would think if the RFL released the figures for all clubs average would be around £80k for the league. 

It's not a bad living especially for mostly otherwise unskilled lads in the North of England.

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14 hours ago, North but south said:

It's the figure thr uk gov put out on their apprenticeship data, not sure how true it is but if you include all the apprenticeship and new professionals the bottom end will be much larger than the super stars on 100k

Wouldn't it then presumably include the salaries of players in Championship and L1? And most of them earn peanuts.

Either way, there's no way on earth the average salary in SL is that low.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

Wouldn't it then presumably include the salaries of players in Championship and L1? And most of them earn peanuts.

Either way, there's no way on earth the average salary in SL is that low.

It says the average wage for super league players is £20k rising to £40k. The average wage for premiership players is £40k to £60k.

 

5 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

Average wage is really easy to work out, salary cap and all that...maximum spend with 23 players (and without ANY dispensations etc) = £91,000...25+ players but with various dispensations around the same. I would think if the RFL released the figures for all clubs average would be around £80k for the league. 

It's not a bad living especially for mostly otherwise unskilled lads in the North of England.

But a professional is someone who gets paid to work full time. So this number could include apprenticeship and some youth and reserve team players.

Even so £80k for 10 years then low than average wage for 35 years or get a degree and develop your career and earn above average for 40 years. The pressure from schools and friends is going to be go to university. 

Both north America and the uk would do well to target universities more, even if it just means another pathway for players.

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7 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

Average wage is really easy to work out, salary cap and all that...maximum spend with 23 players (and without ANY dispensations etc) = £91,000...25+ players but with various dispensations around the same. I would think if the RFL released the figures for all clubs average would be around £80k for the league. 

It's not a bad living especially for mostly otherwise unskilled lads in the North of England.

I don't think that mean average works purely because there are players, particularly in squad numbers 23 to 30, earning significantly less. Perhaps it is true for a median average though.

 

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4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't think that mean average works purely because there are players, particularly in squad numbers 23 to 30, earning significantly less. Perhaps it is true for a median average though.

 

And we have the top end @ £2.5 million and LOTS of players earning north of £100k and some of those >£150 and then some of those >£200k.

And some really duff players earning £80k plus who would never earn anywhere near that in any other walk of life.

And of course below SL it is a second job to lots of players so many (lots) are still earning way in excess of average wage.

I personally know players who never played SL level or much SL level or big contract level SL who have very comfortable lives , houses paid for, villas abroad, own properties etc. It is not a bad living at all. 

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6 hours ago, North but south said:

 

 

But a professional is someone who gets paid to work full time. So this number could include apprenticeship and some youth and reserve team players.

 

No, a professional is someone who gets paid to play. The "full time" is a very recent development in RL history and is NOT the default setting of the game. 

There are still many, many professional RL players to whom it is a second occupation or it is their first occupation but have another occupation. These players of course are earning way in excess of the average because of this.

Pre SL there were players who were earning very big money playing RL who also had another decent job. These players did very, very well , probably better than a lot of subsequent "full time" players, and have had a very decent life.

That was probably the ideal.

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