13 team super league?

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Your counterfactual is irrelevant because it didnt happen.

Leigh went in SL, dropped out, got a massive free parachute payment and couldnt pay their players.

The simple fact is that the evidence showed us what happens when Leigh are promoted. 

It would take 5-10years of Leigh being in a franchised SL, probably longer under P+R to get them to even where a Wakefield is. 

OK,

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

You bored Harry ?

I am now Gubby, do you reckon he is a lonely guy?

[Smudger06]

On 25/03/2020 at 08:58, scotchy1 said:

1. No

2/3. yes

4. no. 

5. no. 

6. No.

Elstone's presentation to Sky should be simple. 6 games per week, 1 thursday, 1 friday, 3 saturday, 1 Sunday. Two 'overseas slots' Les Catalans at 5:30 Saturday home and away, Toronto at 8pm home and away. 

If we had a bit of money to put in to it. I'd buy the rights to the championship, L1 for the £5m a year they currently get from SL, buy the NRL rights, sell the thursday and friday games as one package. the rest bundled in to an 'RL channel' that can be bought wholesale like Sky Sports Cricket etc, and can be subscribed directly as an add on package or streaming package

 

How many rounds are we having? You want Toronto & Catalans, Who are your other 10 Clubs? 

[Smudger06]

28 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I dont think it matters all that much.

Personally I'd go for the ten that are there now but demand more of them, with toulouse and London (as long as they find a home) are the next cabs off the rank

Yes, It would be impossible to exclude any of the present Clubs except through the agreed upon relegation method, which is clearly not desirable because that comes with the accompanying promotion method! (A desirable Club could be lost and not a Wakefield or a Salford & an undesirable Club could be promoted such as Leigh or Featherstone, not a London or a Toulouse) 

You would have to buy the Championship Rights regardless, to get them to agree to suspension of P&R, you suggest £5m, honestly, do you think they'd take that in return for a closed door, or will it cost more? 

[welshmagpie]

On 25/03/2020 at 19:37, sweaty craiq said:

Time to be radical and start maximizing the sport. Two divisions of 10 for SL next year. TO, Leigh, Fev, Bulls, Newcastle, Widnes to Join the 12 then be brave with Ottawa and Avignon - 3 years no relegation to the PT leagues provided playing and economic standards are met, 1 up/down between SL1/2 with a play off similar to mid 8's between 2nd bottom SL1 and 2-4 SL2 winner is in SL1

 

No London?

[Smudger06]

6 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

No London?

Surely London is more viable than Avignon in a 2 x10. 

[Hela Wigmen]

In principle, thirteen teams in Super League isn’t a bad idea. A bye round built around when teams travel to Toronto would be fairly sensible. However, there’s a few reasons why I just can’t see it working for next year. 

Firstly, it’s based off the premise that we get enough Rugby League to declare a winner in the Championship, which feels unlikely at the minute. 

Secondly and probably most importantly, home games from a thirteen team league. It’s pretty well known that teams want a certain amount of home games a year. I seem to recall that number being thirteen, I’m sure that’s what Michael Carter said teams need. Now, I’m not sure how black and white it is but with thirteen teams in the league, the obvious way to look at it is twelve home games. If one fewer home game is that detrimental, I’m not sure and if Super League clubs want an extra home game, I’m not sure how you go about adding that to the season. 

Also, you have Magic Weekend to think about. If places like Newcastle and Liverpool want to bid and pay x amount to host it each year, are we really in a position to pull the plug on it and if not, how do you accommodate thirteen teams? Do you use some money to pay-off a side, maybe a Catalans Dragons or Toronto Wolfpack, though you could argue they have more value to the weekend than some others?

[Smudger06]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

£5m is what they get now. I think they would need to keep it. Not all. Im sure some clubs would prioritise the retention of P+R above anything else. But for most its not really relevant so that money looks pretty attractive. The alternative in that situation would be nothing and there might not be a championship to be promoted from. Its unlikely anything close to that would be available in the open market. 

Id also say you can exclude some of the present clubs. The question would be why you would want to. IMO 14 is a better number for the top league, so take out London and Toulouse and who else is ready to step up and be somewhere close to any of the clubs in SL? There isnt anyone at the moment. 14 now, tell Ottawa and NYC they will join in 2024, put Wakefield, Cas, and Salford et al on notice that they need to do X, Y and Z by then or they are replaced. and go to 14/15/16 then, dependent on whether they meet those criteria or not.

The £5m is acceptable if the next broadcasting deal comes in at 75% or lower than the current one. Because nothing would be payable to the Championship in that scenario. The top half of the Championship will prioritise P&R over everything else but faced with no share of broadcasting revenue and a sum lower than half of that £5m on the open market, they will take the £5m even if it comes with the P&R suspension cavet. 

By what mechanism can you exclude present SL Clubs against their will? Except through the agreed P&R. You can't. 14 is not going to happen either for many reasons recently discussed on several threads on this forum, the main one been SL Chairmen unwilling to take a lesser share of the pie and another been a perceived lack of players of SL standard. 

[GUBRATS]

59 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

In principle, thirteen teams in Super League isn’t a bad idea. A bye round built around when teams travel to Toronto would be fairly sensible. However, there’s a few reasons why I just can’t see it working for next year. 

Firstly, it’s based off the premise that we get enough Rugby League to declare a winner in the Championship, which feels unlikely at the minute. 

Secondly and probably most importantly, home games from a thirteen team league. It’s pretty well known that teams want a certain amount of home games a year. I seem to recall that number being thirteen, I’m sure that’s what Michael Carter said teams need. Now, I’m not sure how black and white it is but with thirteen teams in the league, the obvious way to look at it is twelve home games. If one fewer home game is that detrimental, I’m not sure and if Super League clubs want an extra home game, I’m not sure how you go about adding that to the season. 

Also, you have Magic Weekend to think about. If places like Newcastle and Liverpool want to bid and pay x amount to host it each year, are we really in a position to pull the plug on it and if not, how do you accommodate thirteen teams? Do you use some money to pay-off a side, maybe a Catalans Dragons or Toronto Wolfpack, though you could argue they have more value to the weekend than some others?

You can't have an odd number of teams and an odd number of games , 13 teams = no magic 

[Hela Wigmen]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You can't have an odd number of teams and an odd number of games , 13 teams = no magic 

Of course you can, it (an odd number of teams) happens every year in League One. You can also have an odd number of games, as Super League and the Championship does.

 

[Smudger06]

@scotchy1 I'm wanting to get to the nuts and bolts of a workable future for the sport, I do think you offer something to these discussions in terms of some brilliant broadcasting ideas. 

Yes it is possible in theory to exclude clubs using those methods but that would be a long drawn out and messy process, given the vested interests and hidden alliances amongst clubs in both the RFL & SLE governance models. So, to move on, you originally stated the current 12 would be perfectly acceptable. 

£5m Championship ?

£3.5m RFL (Governing Body) ?

£3.5m to produce bundled RL package (not including NRL rights buy) ? (£20k-£30k per game) ? 

= £12m 

That only leaves £1.63m per SL Club if they continue to deny Toronto it's share. 

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

@scotchy1 I'm wanting to get to the nuts and bolts of a workable future for the sport, I do think you offer something to these discussions in terms of some brilliant broadcasting ideas. 

Yes it is possible in theory to exclude clubs using those methods but that would be a long drawn out and messy process, given the vested interests and hidden alliances amongst clubs in both the RFL & SLE governance models. So, to move on, you originally stated the current 12 would be perfectly acceptable. 

£5m Championship ?

£3.5m RFL (Governing Body) ?

£3.5m to produce bundled RL package (not including NRL rights buy) ? (£20k-£30k per game) ? 

= £12m 

That only leaves £1.63m per SL Club if they continue to deny Toronto it's share. 

£1.5m x 12 if they distribute Toronto Share working on the basis of taking £30m per year (75% of current deal) from Sky for the Thurs & Fri Night Games, top 2 picks of each round + Sky get Magic, Playoffs x 5 & Grand Final. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

42 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Of course you can, it (an odd number of teams) happens every year in League One. You can also have an odd number of games, as Super League and the Championship does.

 

The odd number of games in these current competitions works because they have an even number of teams, so everybody plays the same amount of games. An odd number of teams means that every round, one team has a bye. Try working out a balanced competition with an odd number of games for an odd number of teams. It doesn't work.

[GUBRATS]

54 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Of course you can, it (an odd number of teams) happens every year in League One. You can also have an odd number of games, as Super League and the Championship does.

 

As the Geek has pointed out ( and as I have done every few months for about 4 years now ) yes L1 has an odd number of teams , but play an even number of games , SL and the Championship play an odd number but have an even number of teams 

Work it out ?

[Smudger06]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

As the Geek has pointed out ( and as I have done every few months for about 4 years now ) yes L1 has an odd number of teams , but play an even number of games , SL and the Championship play an odd number but have an even number of teams 

Work it out ?

Fair one. 

They'd have to sack off Magic & Summer Bash. 

[Rupert Prince]

On 22/03/2020 at 16:43, Man of Kent said:

Not sure it is allowed under SLE’s articles of association but seems fair enough to me.

With the World Cup next year, a 25-round season including Magic (and no loopy fixtures) would do England a favour. 

Yes. But stick with 24.

[Hela Wigmen]

28 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

The odd number of games in these current competitions works because they have an even number of teams, so everybody plays the same amount of games. An odd number of teams means that every round, one team has a bye. Try working out a balanced competition with an odd number of games for an odd number of teams. It doesn't work.

Why is 13 teams and say 25 games (12 H&A and a Magic round) any more or less unbalanced than having 12 teams and 27 rounds? 

There’s not a lot wrong with byes. A bye round immediately after a trip to Canada/an away game with Toronto would be a good way to build this in to the calendar.

You could also retain a Magic Weekend. If cities are bidding for it and it’s bringing in a good amount of income, there’s no logical reason for getting rid, thirteen teams or not. Now, I’m sure people could/would moan about fairness and a team missing out. That’s not strictly true. While Toronto could be the ones missing out, a number of their games at the start of a year are on neutral territory anyway, so do they lose out?

19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

As the Geek has pointed out ( and as I have done every few months for about 4 years now ) yes L1 has an odd number of teams , but play an even number of games , SL and the Championship play an odd number but have an even number of teams 

Work it out ?

You said you can’t have an odd number of teams, I said you can and provided evidence. You said you can’t have an odd number of games, I said you can and provided evidence. Now your changing the parameters of your argument. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

14 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Why is 13 teams and say 25 games (12 H&A and a Magic round) any more or less unbalanced than having 12 teams and 27 rounds? 

Because you can't have 13 teams and 25 games - mathematically it doesn't work.

If you have 13 teams, then if everyone plays everyone home and away, that equals 24 games. Now if you want teams to play 25 games then you have to include another round, but because of the odd number of teams that means that 12 teams will have played 25 games, and 1 team will only have played 24. To get that 13th team up to 25 games, it needs to play one of the other teams again, taking that other team's number of games up to 26. 

As I say, it isn't possible to have an odd number of teams and an odd number of games. You can have one or the other, but not both.

[HawkMan]

13 teams could be a way forward easily, here's how.

13 teams, 24 games, but with TWO magics. Season opener Magic to  really ramp up interest; 1v2, 3v4, 5v6, 7v8, 9v10, 11v12, 13 misses out. Then second magic to close season, 2v3, 4v5, 6 v7, 8v9, 10v11, 12v13, 1 misses out, then finally 1v13 a few days after second magic,  all teams play 26 no loop, then play offs etc.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just now, HawkMan said:

13 teams could be a way forward easily, here's how.

13 teams, 24 games, but with TWO magics. Season opener Magic to  really ramp up interest; 1v2, 3v4, 5v6, 7v8, 9v10, 11v12, 13 misses out. Then second magic to close season, 2v3, 4v5, 6 v7, 8v9, 10v11, 12v13, 1 misses out, then finally 1v13 a few days after second magic,  all teams play 26 no loop, then play offs etc.

Personally, I'd rather they just did Magic as the last 16 of the Challenge Cup or a have it as a 9s tournament rather than imbalance the league.

[Smudger06]

5 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

13 teams could be a way forward easily, here's how.

13 teams, 24 games, but with TWO magics. Season opener Magic to  really ramp up interest; 1v2, 3v4, 5v6, 7v8, 9v10, 11v12, 13 misses out. Then second magic to close season, 2v3, 4v5, 6 v7, 8v9, 10v11, 12v13, 1 misses out, then finally 1v13 a few days after second magic,  all teams play 26 no loop, then play offs etc.

That would be over 29 Rounds? Then Playoffs + GF. 

What are the standings for the Magics based on? 

Who are the 13 Clubs? 

When would this start? 

[HawkMan]

35 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

That would be over 29 Rounds? Then Playoffs + GF. 

What are the standings for the Magics based on? 

Who are the 13 Clubs? 

When would this start? 

Just pointing out that 13 could work MATHEMATICALLY, and may be beneficial in producing a more logical season without loop fixtures. SL can do the fixture assignment as they do now. Just to add, the final match 1v13 on neutral ground, so all 13 teams play 12 home and away and 2 on neutral grounds. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Just pointing out that 13 could work MATHEMATICALLY

But only if there's an even number of games. I think the issue was that a previous poster claimed that it could work with an odd number of games, which it can't.

[HawkMan]

7 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

But only if there's an even number of games. I think the issue was that a previous poster claimed that it could work with an odd number of games, which it can't.

Absolutely right mate.  But pandemic or not could not this be a way forward. Season starts with fantastic publicity with all teams ( bar one) showing the uninitiated what TGG has to offer in a Magic weekend grand opening,  then closing with a Magic weekend that could have some very important games over two days of thrills , and NO LOOP games. 

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, HawkMan said:

Absolutely right mate.  But pandemic or not could not this be a way forward. Season starts with fantastic publicity with all teams ( bar one) showing the uninitiated what TGG has to offer in a Magic weekend grand opening,  then closing with a Magic weekend that could have some very important games over two days of thrills , and NO LOOP games. 

Really crappy weather would effect ticket sales for the 1st Magic, then the 2nd Magic would be too close to the GF effecting ticket sales for both!