THE RED ROOSTER Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Reads like a good old British fudge. Keep the 12 clubs already in and promote the Championship Grand Final winner. As with most fudges it's not properly thought through. The one "positive" of the current coronavirus situation, in some people's eyes, would be that a cull of Rugby League clubs caused by the cash-flow would be the act of social darwinism that should cause a radical re-think of what type of professonal structure the game in this country needs. So the idea floaed on this board every now and then of a two tier professional league of 20 clubs based upon the ability to fund a full-time squad and other criteria such as Location, Grass Roots development, Value to the TV deal etc. The number of 20 clubs being enough to generate enough support amongst Championship clubs and other applicants to force this through in rugby leagues very own #metoo moment. I am afraid a franchised league of X number of clubs is becoming inevitable and COVID19 is in some ways accelerating history in that I cannot see the current structure surviving. Sooner of later the leading clubs and administrators will have to tajke some action to preserve the game in the northern hemisphere.. Quote When the pinch comes the common people will turn out to be more intelligent than the clever ones. I certainly hope so. George Orwell You either own NFTs or women’s phone numbers but not both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said: It all depends on how long the shutdown goes on for. I can't see the closed door scenario being allowed, although if soccer goes ahead (which I suspect it won't) then we might continue. No, if this continues into mid July or even August then this season will have to be dumped and we start again next year, albeit with probably far fewer clubs. Cut the loops and magic and take the season into December. Still have a close season and start a later and shorter loopless season in 2021. 2021 is an age away!!! And sadly and worryingly i have to tell you that bad sad things might still be coming to us in the next few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardypaul Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 6 hours ago, Man of Kent said: Perhaps Toronto and, say, Toulouse could sit it out? I wasn’t aware Toulouse are in SL!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 So, we can’t relegate anyone but we can promote them? How does that work? If we are to finish the season in its entirety, the bottom team should go down, regardless of who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Too many unknowns at this stage to be even talking about next years structure. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that one or more clubs across the leagues will go under due to the pandemic so who knows if all of the existing 12 SL clubs will still be around in 2021 (including Wakefield who aren't exactly the richest club). The entire season could end up being scrapped so we just start afresh again in 2021 with structure we have in 2020 St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Judging by who might be left, it could be a lot fewer than the amount suggested on here and it might take NY to arrive to make up the numbers. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manfred Mann Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Retaining Catalans and Toronto while promoting Toulouse and London in 2021 would make a lot of promotional and advertising sense, and would surely increase the fan base and revenue for rugby league. Subsequently promoting Ottawa and New York four years from now would make additional good sense, and make Super League one of the premier sporting competitions in the northern hemisphere, and dare I say it, in the entire world. However, if the truth be known, Salford, and possibly Wakefield, could fall by the wayside as a result of the financial impact of the Covid-19 closing of the Super League competition in 2020. So in that case, with the promotions that I have suggested, Super League could still remain a 12 team competition in 2021, and expand to a 14 team competition in 2024. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIWIT Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Moot discussion (but then what else do we have?) but not all of the current SL clubs will make it to 2021. Maybe a couple of the current clubs will be forced to merge, or will simply go broke. 2021 will bring a radical restructuring to a great deal of the sporting world where only the strongest (the richest) survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Tonks Sidestep Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 Like most, I suspect Carter hasn't thought through what a 13 team SL would actually mean. Not that it matters as there's virtually zero chance of this season being completed anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ojx Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said: Like most, I suspect Carter hasn't thought through what a 13 team SL would actually mean. Not that it matters as there's virtually zero chance of this season being completed anyway. 24 games and a later start to the season. Sounds good to me, especially if this season restarts and stretches into December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 How many teams have already played an opponent twice because of the loop fixtures? If it is in all cases just the once either Home or Away then if the situation allows a resumption of the game then SL could play 22 fixtures against each other (so just 15 games to fit in) on a home and away basis, likewise the Championship could play 26 fixtures, and P&R could still go ahead, what is simpler are even fairer than each club playing all it's rivals just twice, no magic, no loop fixtures that would be a proper league structure and every club would find it's true postition on the league ladder, but this is Rugby League and that is to logical for some to comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Come on Fev! Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: How many teams have already played an opponent twice because of the loop fixtures? If it is in all cases just the once either Home or Away then if the situation allows a resumption of the game then SL could play 22 fixtures against each other (so just 15 games to fit in) on a home and away basis, likewise the Championship could play 26 fixtures, and P&R could still go ahead, what is simpler are even fairer than each club playing all it's rivals just twice, no magic, no loop fixtures that would be a proper league structure and every club would find it's true postition on the league ladder, but this is Rugby League and that is to logical for some to comprehend. Clubs are going to lose out financially from that however. The only reason we have loop fixtures is because some teams need the extra home games to stay afloat. There's also the issue with Toronto whereby they have played 2 "home games" that weren't because they conceded asking teams to come over twice to Canada would be unfair. I don't think its therefore fair they should be punished for that. There's also whether travel etc restrictions are lifted universally across the UK, Canada and France. A further issue is that not everyone has played the same number of games, between Storm Ciara and Coronavirus my club have played 2 games less for example. The final fundamental issue is whether we have all the clubs in SL and the RFL by the end of it. The longer this goes on the more likely it is that a Wakefield or a Salford in SL (as well as a number of lower division clubs) go under. Even Warrington are coming out saying "don't assume we'll be fine". The stark reality is that we may be facing a severely reduced roster of clubs by the end of all this - especially if the game isn't restarted by May/June. If that is the case the season couldn't possibly continue with a modicum of "as you were". There may be a possibility across the leagues to have a extremely shortened season with playoffs and promotion, but relegation, and thus the financial consequences that would confer, in those circumstances would be incredibly unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, scotchy1 said: They will ensure the clubs finish the season. All of them. What happens after is anyones guess. I do wonder what the point of moving to a 13 team league is if there are 2 or 3 SL teams who are bust and a few at the top of the championship are bust. The game needs to stop for a minute, take a deep breath, look at what it wants 2022 onwards to look like and move towards that, the status quo is likely to be impossible to save, and even if it were, its not preferable. This expanded League idea has been suggested on the basis that none of the teams go bust. I agree a whole game rethink may be necessary, but I think we should cross that bridge if we come to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, scotchy1 said: I think if we are left reacting we will be scrambling. The tv deal is expiring, I think if we 'wait and see' the game could lose another 4 or 5 years on top of what has been a pretty disastrous last 5 or 6 years. If it does get that bad that clubs are going out of business I think we'll still have plenty of time left to come to an arrangement. So no scrambling so to speak, unless all the clubs that may go out of business because of the lockdown did the day before the lockdown was lifted. In any circumstance I am not entirely sure this season will be "completed" in the sense that most people would understand it. The TV deal clearly will focus minds after this, but nevertheless we can only assess and present a product to broadcasters once we know what we actually have to present on the other side of this. That may well be a Super League of clubs who can afford it and have weathered this storm with a few changes to the current roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: If it does get that bad that clubs are going out of business I think we'll still have plenty of time left to come to an arrangement. So no scrambling so to speak, unless all the clubs that may go out of business because of the lockdown did the day before the lockdown was lifted. In any circumstance I am not entirely sure this season will be "completed" in the sense that most people would understand it. The TV deal clearly will focus minds after this, but nevertheless we can only assess and present a product to broadcasters once we know what we actually have to present on the other side of this. That may well be a Super League of clubs who can afford it and have weathered this storm with a few changes to the current roster. Agreed. Clubs know a new TV deal is coming and they should already be preparing for a range of scenarios. We also know Covid will have an impact but where, and to what extent, we don't yet know. So we should deal with the facts in front of us and do our best to support what exists now, even with the knowledge that further radical change is almost certainly coming. It would be wrong to let clubs go to the wall now that we could possibly support, just on the grounds that they "probably" will have to change in the future anyway. One crisis at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Clubs are going to lose out financially from that however. The only reason we have loop fixtures is because some teams need the extra home games to stay afloat. There's also the issue with Toronto whereby they have played 2 "home games" that weren't because they conceded asking teams to come over twice to Canada would be unfair. I don't think its therefore fair they should be punished for that. There's also whether travel etc restrictions are lifted universally across the UK, Canada and France. A further issue is that not everyone has played the same number of games, between Storm Ciara and Coronavirus my club have played 2 games less for example. The final fundamental issue is whether we have all the clubs in SL and the RFL by the end of it. The longer this goes on the more likely it is that a Wakefield or a Salford in SL (as well as a number of lower division clubs) go under. Even Warrington are coming out saying "don't assume we'll be fine". The stark reality is that we may be facing a severely reduced roster of clubs by the end of all this - especially if the game isn't restarted by May/June. If that is the case the season couldn't possibly continue with a modicum of "as you were". There may be a possibility across the leagues to have a extremely shortened season with playoffs and promotion, but relegation, and thus the financial consequences that would confer, in those circumstances would be incredibly unfair. Hi Tommy, as I said in my post, "if the situation allows a resumption", and I can see the issue with Catalan and Toulouse, obviously they will be controlled by the French government on both travelling and recieving other clubs, as will Toronto but on the other "it's not fair" aspect of Toronto on the "home" games they have played, it was only a matter of days ago that Toronto would have played their first game in Toronto, whatever the ongoing situation it is always going to be a problem for North American teams with our season begining on the last weekend in January or first in February, save for changing the season to suit them (which should never happen) it is going to be a problem, and if I may say so one that Toronto, Ottawa and maybe NY were aware of even before their application to join the RFL. I agree that there is a very limited chance of the season resumimg in normality, but if as some have suggested the season could be expanded to take in December what I am suggesting of each club playing each other on a home and away basis, the season could resume at the end of September beginning of October ot would be possible(15 games) to complete it, would you still consider that to be unfair to relegate a team? All pie in the Sky of course, just sitting here passing a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 22/03/2020 at 20:25, Gooleboy said: Conveniently his proposal keeps Wakefield up. The last thing we need at the moment is relegation. Not this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 23/03/2020 at 09:38, Hela Wigmen said: So, we can’t relegate anyone but we can promote them? How does that work? If we are to finish the season in its entirety, the bottom team should go down, regardless of who they are. Because the season might be truncated and some clubs might be on the verge of bankrupt. Give the game a breathing space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 44 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Hi Tommy, as I said in my post, "if the situation allows a resumption", and I can see the issue with Catalan and Toulouse, obviously they will be controlled by the French government on both travelling and recieving other clubs, as will Toronto but on the other "it's not fair" aspect of Toronto on the "home" games they have played, it was only a matter of days ago that Toronto would have played their first game in Toronto, whatever the ongoing situation it is always going to be a problem for North American teams with our season begining on the last weekend in January or first in February, save for changing the season to suit them (which should never happen) it is going to be a problem, and if I may say so one that Toronto, Ottawa and maybe NY were aware of even before their application to join the RFL. I agree that there is a very limited chance of the season resumimg in normality, but if as some have suggested the season could be expanded to take in December what I am suggesting of each club playing each other on a home and away basis, the season could resume at the end of September beginning of October ot would be possible(15 games) to complete it, would you still consider that to be unfair to relegate a team? All pie in the Sky of course, just sitting here passing a few minutes. Like I said I think it would be difficult to relegate a team, be that Wakefield, Toronto, Salford, KR or whoever when the competition has changed mid season - and that's if we even still have 12 clubs. We may be facing a scenario where some clubs are promoted by virtue of there being gaps in the top. On specifically the Toronto home games, these weren't specifically given up due to the weather afaik, but mainly so that no English club would have to go to Canada twice because of loop fixtures. Considering the distance and time taken that's like London Broncos asking Whitehaven to play their home game in Yorkshire because its closer, but nevertheless they accepted that and found a solution. Even so, with a delayed season finish this year, the talk has very much been of a delayed and potentially "shortened" season next year anyhow. I put shortened in inverted commas because in reality it may just be a normal season with no loop fixtures starting in March. Should all teams make it through this, but the season only resume in late July/August, I'd bin off the first 5/6/7 games and go to a single round robin comp playing eachother once and the challenge cup with a simple playoffs and grand final. Also a preference for the extra home game to teams like Huddersfield who have barely played at home this year. I believe that's what the NRL are heading for? Lets be real nobody wants to be hanging around on Thursday evenings in December. I'd agree with your 15 game idea but I just think there's too many variables in terms of uneven number of games played etc. that I think a blank slate may be the best option if this shutdown goes on well into the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, scotchy1 said: The tv deal will need to be signed next year. If the game is still in flux and doesnt know where it's going to be then that is going to be lower. If we are getting towards the end of this year and still responding to the situation, still not knowing who, how many are there, and what structure we can play to and it's going to be drastically lower An SL that can show itself as having a set structure, a strong base, and a growth plan for 3,4,5 years is going to be much more valuable. There are practical considerations that mean 'wait and see' this season impacts on next. Can we sell the rights to France when we dont know how many teams there will be never mind how many french teams, ditto canada. The salary cap and player contracts are all finalised or at least pretty well planned for way before decemeber/january how are teams supposed to organise themselves if they don't know the structure, who is available, who they are in competition with for these players, especially for promoted and relegated players. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. The game should be able to put in place its preferred structure for the next ten years and confirm it now with contingencies in place for response where necessary. Wait and we play the hand we are dealt. Right now we can choose our cards. Look I know what your saying and agree with the sentiment. The next TV deal is undoubtedly crucial and I would imagine Elstone already had plans in motion before this season for what he was aiming to achieve. But we can't plan very far at all right now. If even Warrington are coming out saying "don't assume we'll be okay" then there are clearly very few things we can take for granted. Like I said, it very well may be that we end up with Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Hull FC, Hull KR, Catalans, Toronto, Toulouse, London Broncos, Bradford and Huddersfield as the only remaining full time sides at the end of this with Ottawa planning to come in the following season and we have to see what we can do with that. It's possible that even some of those clubs may be trimmed off the list and other clubs rise to the challenge. What I'm saying is we can't have a grand vision for the game when what "the game" will constitute is in massive doubt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: How are Warrington for instance supposed to plan for being ok if we have no idea what the season not only looks like this season but next as well? how do they budget? how do they get loans? finance? investment? How does anyone else? If a championship club loses 500k this year, how do they find that when they have no idea whats happening next year, and whatever happens next year is going to change the year after? Who is going to lend money to that organisation? who is going to invest in it? Making short-term decisions has long term repercussions. Well nobody knows do what's going to happen do they. I don't know what you want anyone to say? Even the PM can't specifically tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 57 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: We can put in place the plans and actions to control what we can control (the structure, our aims, objectives, overall direction etc) and respond to the things that we can't. What we are seeing is giving up any control and waiting to see what we are left with and start again from there. They can have ideas and aims all they like, what this scenario shows is that even the best laid plans are up in flames due to this and therefore the aims may not even be relevant. I don't understand how that is "giving up control" its just accepting reality. There's no guarantee that any of the investors in our sport from owners to fans will be able to continue in the same way as before once this is over. The RFL has been lobbying the government about financial support for the game proactively, the season has been suspended indefinitely. We're in all likelihood going to have time between the ending of lockdown and pandemic conditions to the restarting of fixtures to assess and decide where the game is at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 16 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Look I know what your saying and agree with the sentiment. The next TV deal is undoubtedly crucial and I would imagine Elstone already had plans in motion before this season for what he was aiming to achieve. But we can't plan very far at all right now. If even Warrington are coming out saying "don't assume we'll be okay" then there are clearly very few things we can take for granted. Like I said, it very well may be that we end up with Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Hull FC, Hull KR, Catalans, Toronto, Toulouse, London Broncos, Bradford and Huddersfield as the only remaining full time sides at the end of this with Ottawa planning to come in the following season and we have to see what we can do with that. It's possible that even some of those clubs may be trimmed off the list and other clubs rise to the challenge. What I'm saying is we can't have a grand vision for the game when what "the game" will constitute is in massive doubt Is Bradford a full time team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted March 25, 2020 Share Posted March 25, 2020 15 hours ago, scotchy1 said: If a championship club loses 500k this year, how do they find that when they have no idea whats happening next year, Well done Scotchy, you made that sentance look like you even cared about the Championship clubs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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