Jump to content

Placed where RL is non-existent


Recommended Posts

43 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I realise that and as Hopping Mad says, County are all but a league club. But the town does fit the criteria and we need something to talk about on these long boring lockdown days.

Hopefully Stockport are only a couple of years from getting back into the league. I was I could say the same about getting back into league. 

Stockport is a very good shout. It's 20 years since I saw the RU club play but I recall their ground being a long way out of town. Any amateur rugby league activity in the Stockport area over the years?

I saw Swinton play a few times at Gigg Lane, Bury. Do any Swinton fans among posters recall RL being welcome (or even slightly popular) in Bury or at Gigg Lane? Bury Broncos ARLFC are still alive and kicking, aren't they?

I mentioned Goole further up this thread. With an amateur rugby league club now up and running, based at the Victoria Pleasure Grounds (facilities good enough for semi-pro RL), is there a chance we might see a Goole team in League One?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 128
  • Created
  • Last Reply
1 hour ago, Hopping Mad said:

Stockport is a very good shout. It's 20 years since I saw the RU club play but I recall their ground being a long way out of town. Any amateur rugby league activity in the Stockport area over the years?

I saw Swinton play a few times at Gigg Lane, Bury. Do any Swinton fans among posters recall RL being welcome (or even slightly popular) in Bury or at Gigg Lane? Bury Broncos ARLFC are still alive and kicking, aren't they?

I mentioned Goole further up this thread. With an amateur rugby league club now up and running, based at the Victoria Pleasure Grounds (facilities good enough for semi-pro RL), is there a chance we might see a Goole team in League One?

The union club are definitely a bit out of town, in the leafy suburbs which is a bit more union territory than central Stockport! Even it's old name of Davenport is a bit of a push. And on the subject of pushing it with location and name then Manchester RUFC are based further out of Manchester than Cheadle, well outside the M60.

Anyway, before this goes too far down the cross code route, I'm not sure that there is any RL activity in Stockport or has been for a long time. I seem to remember that during the Koukash era at Salford there was talk of playing a game at Edgeley Park. I think it would be a really interesting experiment. There would be quite a big catchment area (from as far east as Glossop, as far south as Macclesfield and west as Sale) and I think you would get a good number of league fans going to support the venture. However just the name rugby might cause some people to be angry as Iffley referred to earlier and the actions of Sale in the demise of County.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

However just the name rugby might cause some people to be angry as Iffley referred to earlier and the actions of Sale in the demise of County.

What did Sale have to do with Stockport County going down through the divisions? I haven’t heard about that before. 
 

It’s crazy that Stockport were until last season down in the 6th tier. Doesn’t seem long since Norwich used to play them all the time in the championship. I only went away once, Stockport 2-0 up and we draw 2-2, must have been around 1998, crumbing open terrace behind the goal with a social club right outside the turnstile - class. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Hopping Mad said:

Stockport is a very good shout. It's 20 years since I saw the RU club play but I recall their ground being a long way out of town. Any amateur rugby league activity in the Stockport area over the years?

I saw Swinton play a few times at Gigg Lane, Bury. Do any Swinton fans among posters recall RL being welcome (or even slightly popular) in Bury or at Gigg Lane? Bury Broncos ARLFC are still alive and kicking, aren't they?

I mentioned Goole further up this thread. With an amateur rugby league club now up and running, based at the Victoria Pleasure Grounds (facilities good enough for semi-pro RL), is there a chance we might see a Goole team in League One?

Didnt HULL FC play a match at Goole Town once (It was either an A team match or pre-season friendly)

Any Airlie-Bird historians here please can you check out?

 

Cheers 

 

Paul

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

What did Sale have to do with Stockport County going down through the divisions? I haven’t heard about that before. 
 

Fasten your seatbelt...

rapid timeline:

2001-2 Stockport are relegated from the second tier.

2003 Stockport are sold to the owner of Sale Sharks and Sale Sharks move in

2005-6 Stockport are essentially handed over to the supporters trus having lost millions and clinging on in the 3rd tier, while Sale retain ownership of the ground . They're then relegated to the 4th tier.

2009 they go into admin to pay creditors (having failed to attract much in the way of investment because they haven't got any assets except players)

brief foray back to league 1, then relegated again, then relegated to the conference

2013 relegated to Conference North.

Essentially, they were shafted by being divorced from their ground and the ability to therefore receive F&B money, borrow against it, redevelop it, or pull any of the levers you normally could with your own ground. Similar happened to Oxford Utd - although that wasn't another sport coming in so much as the owner selling the team and keeping the stadium, and, in the other code, Bristol RU losing their ground to Bristol Rovers.

Obviously none of this was helped by some management and ownership fund and games within County (and Oxford, and Bris RU), but the supporters have got a point that the rot set in when they lost ownership/control of their ground. It made them far less attractive to investors.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

Fasten your seatbelt...

rapid timeline:

2001-2 Stockport are relegated from the second tier.

2003 Stockport are sold to the owner of Sale Sharks and Sale Sharks move in

2005-6 Stockport are essentially handed over to the supporters trus having lost millions and clinging on in the 3rd tier, while Sale retain ownership of the ground . They're then relegated to the 4th tier.

2009 they go into admin to pay creditors (having failed to attract much in the way of investment because they haven't got any assets except players)

brief foray back to league 1, then relegated again, then relegated to the conference

2013 relegated to Conference North.

Essentially, they were shafted by being divorced from their ground and the ability to therefore receive F&B money, borrow against it, redevelop it, or pull any of the levers you normally could with your own ground. Similar happened to Oxford Utd - although that wasn't another sport coming in so much as the owner selling the team and keeping the stadium, and, in the other code, Bristol RU losing their ground to Bristol Rovers.

Obviously none of this was helped by some management and ownership fund and games within County (and Oxford, and Bris RU), but the supporters have got a point that the rot set in when they lost ownership/control of their ground. It made them far less attractive to investors.

 

Why didn't Stockport do all that before selling the club? You can only polish a ###### for so long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone watched The English Game on Netflix? 

It may give you an insight into why the Lancashire Mill towns are soccer rather than rugby. 

Very similar story to the 1895 break away by the Northern Union. 

Working class clubs paying players.Darwen one of the first. 

. Old Etonians (the then FA) trying to ban the likes of Blackburn from the FA Cup. 

The difference I suppose is the FA backed down to the Lancashire FA threat of a break away competition whilst the rugby union didn't. 

So the mill owners were cleared to pay players and Blackburn went onto dominated the FA Cup for a few years. Next up the Black Country working class teams followed and the power was taken away from the Public Schools in London and shifted north. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, RMBJ said:

Why didn't Stockport do all that before selling the club? You can only polish a ###### for so long.

Stockport definitely weren't faultless in their own downfall as with pretty much any club in any sport that goes through hard times. However without getting into the rights or wrongs of it then Sale (and the game of 'rugby') got the blame from a lot of supporters, myself included to be honest. My original point was I would wonder how that would effect the crowd if the mooted Salford game at edgeley Park a few years ago ever happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Didnt HULL FC play a match at Goole Town once (It was either an A team match or pre-season friendly)

Any Airlie-Bird historians here please can you check out?

Cheers 

Paul

Yes, that's right, Paul. According to Trevor Delaney's The Grounds of Rugby League, it was on September 14th, 1990. Leeds the visitors for an 'A' team game.

The original Northern Union Goole club (1879-1902) played at the VPG.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, RMBJ said:

Why didn't Stockport do all that before selling the club? You can only polish a ###### for so long.

Because County were looking for new investors and were ticking along ok as it was. They got a new investor who said "I'll bring a load of money and my RU team so we can sweat the asset more. It'll all be under the same ownership."

In absolute fairness, that multisport model is ok, and is (now) working very well in Bristol. So it's not that they were stupid even to go for that. It's the bit where not only the team was divorced from the rest of it, but, as with Oxford, that people came forward *to take it on those terms* that caused the problems.

When the deal went through in 03, they were only a year out of Championship football. The problem, as I think we're going to see imminently with Championship football, is how much it costs. The problem wasn't actually with Stockport being a basket case, they *became* a basket case afterwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, yanto said:

Has anyone watched The English Game on Netflix? 

It may give you an insight into why the Lancashire Mill towns are soccer rather than rugby. 

Very similar story to the 1895 break away by the Northern Union. 

Working class clubs paying players.Darwen one of the first. 

. Old Etonians (the then FA) trying to ban the likes of Blackburn from the FA Cup. 

The difference I suppose is the FA backed down to the Lancashire FA threat of a break away competition whilst the rugby union didn't. 

So the mill owners were cleared to pay players and Blackburn went onto dominated the FA Cup for a few years. Next up the Black Country working class teams followed and the power was taken away from the Public Schools in London and shifted north. 

That dramatisation played fast and loose with the facts. It told of only one club in Blackburn, when there were two, Blackburn Olympic and Blackburn Rovers, which were both involved in the events depicted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

Because County were looking for new investors and were ticking along ok as it was. They got a new investor who said "I'll bring a load of money and my RU team so we can sweat the asset more. It'll all be under the same ownership."

In absolute fairness, that multisport model is ok, and is (now) working very well in Bristol. So it's not that they were stupid even to go for that. It's the bit where not only the team was divorced from the rest of it, but, as with Oxford, that people came forward *to take it on those terms* that caused the problems.

When the deal went through in 03, they were only a year out of Championship football. The problem, as I think we're going to see imminently with Championship football, is how much it costs. The problem wasn't actually with Stockport being a basket case, they *became* a basket case afterwards.

 

The investor wasn't particularly a RU fan from what I've read. Sale were there to sink or swim just like Stockport were. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Yes, that's right, Paul. According to Trevor Delaney's The Grounds of Rugby League, it was on September 14th, 1990. Leeds the visitors for an 'A' team game.

The original Northern Union Goole club (1879-1902) played at the VPG.

Thanks HM I thought as much (A team match as well:) I will award myself a point LOL:)

Cheers 

 

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, RMBJ said:

 

The investor wasn't particularly a RU fan from what I've read. Sale were there to sink or swim just like Stockport were. 

not disagreeing at all, but it's not really a rugby point per se, it's more that as the cash ran out he was making more money from Sale than County, so he cut County loose. Which is a rational decision. 

But if you're a County fan, seeing the investment turn into "goodbye" ground, then you're not going to see it like that. Anymore than if you're an Orrell fan. Loads of clubs from different sports pooling their resources under one owner has so far worked in one place, Bristol. It's totally normal on the continent, but it has certainly gone sour in Wigan and Stockport.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

not disagreeing at all, but it's not really a rugby point per se, it's more that as the cash ran out he was making more money from Sale than County, so he cut County loose. Which is a rational decision. 

But if you're a County fan, seeing the investment turn into "goodbye" ground, then you're not going to see it like that. Anymore than if you're an Orrell fan. Loads of clubs from different sports pooling their resources under one owner has so far worked in one place, Bristol. It's totally normal on the continent, but it has certainly gone sour in Wigan and Stockport.

This virus might be the catalyst for a total rethink in how professional sport is run in the UK.

We might not like some of the insular sports that the Americans play (or maybe you do) but what you can't fault is the commercial success of the model they use to run it. It won't be an easy sell as so many of the tenets that underpin how sport works in the USA are anathema to us, These include;

No promotion/relegation
Conferences
Franchises
Draft system

The numbers are truly enormous as well - the 32 NFL teams, 20 of them will only play 16 regular season games plus 4 pre-season 'friendlies'. Of the 12 teams who make the play-offs, the pair who reach and contest the SuperBowl will only play a maximum of four more matches. A SuperBowl winning team will play just 24 matches., most will only play 20 matches. 

And for those 20-24 matches they get $255m before they've even thrown a pass! That's called national revenue which consists of TV deals, NFL merchandising, licensing deals etc negotiated by the NFL itself. Now the kicker, each team makes their own local revenue as well from ticket sales, concessions, sponsors etc is earned by the teams themselves. The Packers earned $196 million just in local revenue alone in 2018!  

$450m from just 24 games played! 
 

Tweaks are needed of course but this is the model to look at going forward - no sentiment, just cold hard commercial reality. 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RMBJ said:

This virus might be the catalyst for a total rethink in how professional sport is run in the UK.

We might not like some of the insular sports that the Americans play (or maybe you do) but what you can't fault is the commercial success of the model they use to run it. It won't be an easy sell as so many of the tenets that underpin how sport works in the USA are anathema to us, These include;

No promotion/relegation
Conferences
Franchises
Draft system

The numbers are truly enormous as well - the 32 NFL teams, 20 of them will only play 16 regular season games plus 4 pre-season 'friendlies'. Of the 12 teams who make the play-offs, the pair who reach and contest the SuperBowl will only play a maximum of four more matches. A SuperBowl winning team will play just 24 matches., most will only play 20 matches. 

And for those 20-24 matches they get $255m before they've even thrown a pass! That's called national revenue which consists of TV deals, NFL merchandising, licensing deals etc negotiated by the NFL itself. Now the kicker, each team makes their own local revenue as well from ticket sales, concessions, sponsors etc is earned by the teams themselves. The Packers earned $196 million just in local revenue alone in 2018!  

$450m from just 24 games played! 
 

Tweaks are needed of course but this is the model to look at going forward - no sentiment, just cold hard commercial reality. 


 

1000000% AGREE WITH YOU THIS IS THE WAY TO GO ?

 

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, RMBJ said:

This virus might be the catalyst for a total rethink in how professional sport is run in the UK.

We might not like some of the insular sports that the Americans play (or maybe you do) but what you can't fault is the commercial success of the model they use to run it. It won't be an easy sell as so many of the tenets that underpin how sport works in the USA are anathema to us, These include;

No promotion/relegation
Conferences
Franchises
Draft system

The numbers are truly enormous as well - the 32 NFL teams, 20 of them will only play 16 regular season games plus 4 pre-season 'friendlies'. Of the 12 teams who make the play-offs, the pair who reach and contest the SuperBowl will only play a maximum of four more matches. A SuperBowl winning team will play just 24 matches., most will only play 20 matches. 

And for those 20-24 matches they get $255m before they've even thrown a pass! That's called national revenue which consists of TV deals, NFL merchandising, licensing deals etc negotiated by the NFL itself. Now the kicker, each team makes their own local revenue as well from ticket sales, concessions, sponsors etc is earned by the teams themselves. The Packers earned $196 million just in local revenue alone in 2018!  

$450m from just 24 games played! 
 

Tweaks are needed of course but this is the model to look at going forward - no sentiment, just cold hard commercial reality. 


 

Sounds terrible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The US system has both good and bad points, yep it’s great for the income generating potential but it can suck for the average fan.

For example, I follow the Seattle Seahawks, or at least I do on TV as there isn’t a hope in hell of me getting a season ticket, and single game tickets can only be found from scalpers in return for a kidney! But then I shouldn’t complain too much, the poor people of Oakland have just seen their team relocated to Las Vegas just because their billionaire owner couldn’t get the taxpayers of one of America’s poorest cities to pay for a new stadium.

There are some things I like about the US model but don’t be fooled into thinking it’s the answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, RMBJ said:

This virus might be the catalyst for a total rethink in how professional sport is run in the UK.

We might not like some of the insular sports that the Americans play (or maybe you do) but what you can't fault is the commercial success of the model they use to run it. It won't be an easy sell as so many of the tenets that underpin how sport works in the USA are anathema to us, These include;

No promotion/relegation
Conferences
Franchises
Draft system

The numbers are truly enormous as well - the 32 NFL teams, 20 of them will only play 16 regular season games plus 4 pre-season 'friendlies'. Of the 12 teams who make the play-offs, the pair who reach and contest the SuperBowl will only play a maximum of four more matches. A SuperBowl winning team will play just 24 matches., most will only play 20 matches. 

And for those 20-24 matches they get $255m before they've even thrown a pass! That's called national revenue which consists of TV deals, NFL merchandising, licensing deals etc negotiated by the NFL itself. Now the kicker, each team makes their own local revenue as well from ticket sales, concessions, sponsors etc is earned by the teams themselves. The Packers earned $196 million just in local revenue alone in 2018!  

$450m from just 24 games played! 
 

Tweaks are needed of course but this is the model to look at going forward - no sentiment, just cold hard commercial reality. 


 

You’ve got it, we just turn Rugby League in the UK into the NFL, it’s that easy. Someone tell Ralph Rimmer to sort it out straight away. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also I have a question to get us back to the thread, obviously Rugby (of both codes) transported well to Aus and NZ but has never seen any major presence in Canada, RU would be well down the list of sports in Canada and RL is virtually non existent outside a couple of clubs in Ontario, yet soccer has only been a threat over the past few years, given that the same kinds of people emigrated from the UK to Canada as did to Aus and NZ does anyone know the historical reason for that. How did a really strong rugby culture become established down under whereas Canada seemed to follow the route of Hockey then American sports?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

The US system has both good and bad points, yep it’s great for the income generating potential but it can suck for the average fan.

For example, I follow the Seattle Seahawks, or at least I do on TV as there isn’t a hope in hell of me getting a season ticket, and single game tickets can only be found from scalpers in return for a kidney! But then I shouldn’t complain too much, the poor people of Oakland have just seen their team relocated to Las Vegas just because their billionaire owner couldn’t get the taxpayers of one of America’s poorest cities to pay for a new stadium.

There are some things I like about the US model but don’t be fooled into thinking it’s the answer.

You can't tranplant the same model but there are elements that make great sense. In the UK, people are welded to tradition and a sense of history but ask yourself what it is you really want. Do you want a domestic league filled with journeymen and neverwillbes or do you want something that represents the best in the world, or even just the best in the UK? The NFL has 32 teams which sounds a lot but it's really two leagues of 16 split into 4 conferences. It's more like 8 leagues of 4 teams. And they play less, not more so that what they sell becomes worth more and not less. It's the complete opposite mentality to UK professional sport. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Hopping Mad said:

That dramatisation played fast and loose with the facts. It told of only one club in Blackburn, when there were two, Blackburn Olympic and Blackburn Rovers, which were both involved in the events depicted.

I know but the history of events that I describe, payment to players by mill owners, Lancashire threatening a break away, Old Etonians trying to ban Blackburn, amateurish v professionalism, the shift of power from the South to the North is all true. This meant that the mill towns that are mentioned as being close to Wigan but being soccer towns have a long history of the round ball even before the 1895 Rugby split. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, RMBJ said:

You can't tranplant the same model but there are elements that make great sense. In the UK, people are welded to tradition and a sense of history but ask yourself what it is you really want. Do you want a domestic league filled with journeymen and neverwillbes or do you want something that represents the best in the world, or even just the best in the UK? The NFL has 32 teams which sounds a lot but it's really two leagues of 16 split into 4 conferences. It's more like 8 leagues of 4 teams. And they play less, not more so that what they sell becomes worth more and not less. It's the complete opposite mentality to UK professional sport. 

I want tradition and history.

I also love NFL but I don’t see how you think there is any comparison between that and that RL in England is or could be. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I want tradition and history.

I also love NFL but I don’t see how you think there is any comparison between that and that RL in England is or could be. 

We all love tradition and history but nostalgia is not what it used to be. If Henry Ford had asked people what they wanted they'd have said faster horses.

Times change, things become obselete. We live in a different world now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.