When will Rugby League return?

[Tommygilf]

There's an excellent video of Angela Merkel explaining policy on Coronavirus doing the rounds.

What this should serve as a reminder of is that "flattening the curve" doesn't necessarily mean lowering the number of overall cases - just spreading out the amount of cases to prevent a scenario whereby the healthcare system couldn't cope. It also explains how lockdown is there to reduce transmission with the aim of reducing it to 1 or lower. Hopefully this policy enables the virus to effectively be killed off.

In Germany, training, with precautions but also contact, has resumed for football and its clear that testing and understanding the spread of this disease as well as adherence to social distancing guidelines has enabled them to do this. 

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In many areas , no spectators means no sport 

The number of sports clubs - across all sports - that could survive on TV money but no matchday income for anything more than a few matches is probably in single figures.

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

which would be suicidal for the League 1 clubs (some of them) - by that level gate receipts are a big part of income. Probably some in the Championship too.

I can just about see an argument for the top flight behind closed doors, but in those cases the lower tiers would be better off not playing. But then they come under huge pressure not to have their fans pinched by the clubs that are playing.... so then you come back I think there has to be one decision for the whole game that all levels (in the pro game) sign up to. Either they all play (SL, Champ, L1) IMO and the top tier has to share it's money with the lower tiers more to keep them afloat, or no one does.

They already do share their money with the lower tiers.

I don't think the "steal their fans" is true either, if you're a Championship club RL fan you can only watch your team live 99% in person anyway, so watching SL on TV is actually no change at all.

SL playing behind closed doors, and therefore keeping sky money coming in and perhaps even more if all games are televised, helps maintain some income for Championship and L1 clubs. For the majority this may well be their biggest source of income. It has to be the priority for the whole game to ensure that Sky money keeps flowing.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, gingerjon said:

The number of sports clubs - across all sports - that could survive on TV money but no matchday income for anything more than a few matches is probably in single figures.

But the TV broadcasters will also be looking to broadcast , new deals could be struck 

[gingerjon]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

But the TV broadcasters will also be looking to broadcast , new deals could be struck 

Could be, but we're also talking about TV broadcasters whose wider advertising revenue has absolutely plummeted.

I'm not saying it can't happen but enough to cover the 'missing' costs from gate receipts, bar takings, merchandise sales, sponsors, etc etc? Hard to see.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They already do share their money with the lower tiers.

I don't think the "steal their fans" is true either, if you're a Championship club RL fan you can only watch your team live 99% in person anyway, so watching SL on TV is actually no change at all.

SL playing behind closed doors, and therefore keeping sky money coming in and perhaps even more if all games are televised, helps maintain some income for Championship and L1 clubs. For the majority this may well be their biggest source of income. It has to be the priority for the whole game to ensure that Sky money keeps flowing.

They share existing deals , i'd be surprised if anything was shared from short term measures 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

They share existing deals , i'd be surprised if anything was shared from short term measures 

Agreed, but that is their prerogative.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Could be, but we're also talking about TV broadcasters whose wider advertising revenue has absolutely plummeted.

I'm not saying it can't happen but enough to cover the 'missing' costs from gate receipts, bar takings, merchandise sales, sponsors, etc etc? Hard to see.

Which is why if the players and their agents don't behave realistically on this , they'll be getting nothing from clubs that have shut down 

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed, but that is their prerogative.

Not saying it isn't , I'm not judging them on it , just stating how I see it 

Lower tier clubs don't have the financial commitments that SL clubs have , or are able to mitigate them easier  

Like in my post above , to most clubs it comes down to the players wages , another month down the line some clubs will run out of money 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Which is why if the players and their agents don't behave realistically on this , they'll be getting nothing from clubs that have shut down 

Players' wages are one part - a big part admittedly - and it's going to require realism from a lot of different folk for a 'behind closed doors' comeback to work.

Given our history of working together, I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Not saying it isn't , I'm not judging them on it , just stating how I see it 

Lower tier clubs don't have the financial commitments that SL clubs have , or are able to mitigate them easier  

Like in my post above , to most clubs it comes down to the players wages , another month down the line some clubs will run out of money 

I totally agree. It would be best for the whole game if SL is restarted though, with that ensuring at least some funds do get to lower division clubs - its not a long term solution by anymeans. The suggestion was that SL clubs would "steal fans" or that the whole game had to come back with spectators or not at all, I just don't think that is true or likely. 

[Harry Stottle]

A criticism of televising the Championship has been how bad it looks on TV because of the sparse attendances, but I have argued that the games are every bit as pleasing on the eye as SL, there is more movement of the ball, whilst I will concede that Championship clubs would not beat SL clubs with any regularity but having the top Championship teams playing each other is very good entertainment indeed.

The point I am making is if the game does come back and played behind closed doors and televised, the 'sparse' crowd  criticism does not come into play, anyone who appreciates Rugby League would appreciate Championship Rugby League.

I watch Rugby League at all levels from Kids to Test Matches and find if you have two teams of equal abilities competing it usually results in a good game.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

A criticism of televising the Championship has been how bad it looks on TV because of the sparse attendances, but I have argued that the games are every bit as pleasing on the eye as SL, there is more movement of the ball, whilst I will concede that Championship clubs would not beat SL clubs with any regularity but having the top Championship teams playing each other is very good entertainment indeed.

The point I am making is if the game does come back and played behind closed doors and televised, the 'sparse' crowd  criticism does not come into play, anyone who appreciates Rugby League would appreciate Championship Rugby League.

I watch Rugby League at all levels from Kids to Test Matches and find if you have two teams of equal abilities competing it usually results in a good game.

I agree with the sentiment that championship RL can be just as good if not better in some respects than the division above it, but it just doesn't have the commercial pulling power that the Top flight has - or at least, that pulling power hasn't translated into a tv deal. That means that in spite of the on field spectacle, the top flight will always draw more income and support because more people watch it and they do so because its the top flight. 

That's not to say the championship can't have a good TV deal, but it by definition won't be as good as Super League's. How the championship and L1 emerge is going to be interesting and may force the prep that the OurLeague people have been putting in place to be expanded massively.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

TV will probably reassess how its model works. 

I think that behind closed doors will be with us, or at the very least the risk of it, will be with us for long time. A period of years possibly.

This crisis will likely accelerate a move towards tv in whatever format it takes.

Fans are going to be a little more distant and there is a new hurdle to attendance. There needs to be another option for people to watch RL and another way to monetise them

Under the present circumstances behind closed doors would be a welcome diversion, but the game as with most sports is tactile, it is a feely touchy being part off experience of actually being there, watching at close quarters, hearing the hoo's and haa's, observing the thuds and collisions and feeling them in remembrance of what it felt like, discussing (or arguing) the game as it unfolds with your neighbour's on the terraces and in the stands.

You think that it could be played behind closed doors for years possibly, I consider that the majority of Sky RL Subscribers are also people who attend games, if as you think it will last for years behind closed doors then I consider interest will drop away in droves, that being the case and Sky don't have enough customer's that will have another knock on effect in that the funding will also drop considerably.

If you are right then I consider the longevity of the sport will be under a very grave threat.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree with the sentiment that championship RL can be just as good if not better in some respects than the division above it, but it just doesn't have the commercial pulling power that the Top flight has - or at least, that pulling power hasn't translated into a tv deal. That means that in spite of the on field spectacle, the top flight will always draw more income and support because more people watch it and they do so because its the top flight. 

That's not to say the championship can't have a good TV deal, but it by definition won't be as good as Super League's. How the championship and L1 emerge is going to be interesting and may force the prep that the OurLeague people have been putting in place to be expanded massively.

I am referring to televising Championship games under a 'behind closed door scenario' especially with no other RL to watch supporters of the game would take more interest and watch, it could persuade those who have no expierence of the Championship to 'tune in' other than dismissing it because it isn't SL so it can't be so good, there are a lot of very ordinary in quality SL games and because it is a division below people who don't know think that it will be inferior in entertainment value, which it is far from being so. 

If we want to sell the Championship to a wider audience what better time to do it when people will be clamouring for live sport and not have that many alternatives to pursue, you never know it could prove popular enough to sell it those who wish to purchase more live sport to televise, even raking a share of SL's audience with it!

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am referring to televising Championship games under a 'behind closed door scenario' especially with no other RL to watch supporters of the game would take more interest and watch, it could persuade those who have no expierence of the Championship to 'tune in' other than dismissing it because it isn't SL so it can't be so good, there are a lot of very ordinary in quality SL games and because it is a division below people who don't know think that it will be inferior in entertainment value, which it is far from being so. 

If we want to sell the Championship to a wider audience what better time to do it when people will be clamouring for live sport and not have that many alternatives to pursue, you never know it could prove popular enough to sell it those who wish to purchase more live sport to televise, even raking a share of SL's audience with it!

I think that is fine, but as every other sport shows, the top division will always be the most followed and the success of that is necessary for the success of the others. People can have preferences, but the fact of the matter is that the general sporting fan is drawn to the top division, and as a further level, the top clashes within that. For sport nerds it is true that niche and lower divisions can often be "better", but that is small niche and in RL that's a small niche of an already small niche. That's not to say their isn't room for the championship on TV, I happen to think there is plenty, but talk of it taking away a share of SL's audience is fantasy. Just as with the championship and premier league, there is crossover but it would be unhelpful to either to see the other as direct competition from which audience can be raked away. League 1 wouldn't take from the championship either for example.

I agree that the options for the championship should be looked at now. There are obviously however other factors that will be at play, primarily through being part time. If SL recommences behind closed doors effectively in a lockdown environment in 1 or 2 venues, that would be unfeasible for part time championship players for example. That's not to say a solution is impossible, but that there are a few more questions that need to be answered.

[Harry Stottle]

43 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I disagree, already far more people watch on tv than in grounds.

I'd also say that whilst it is a change nobody would choose, it's a change that people will accept if its forced on us.

People would have to get used to the new normal, and if that's the only way they can engage in the game, they will. 

Disagree, live sport is the essence of sport if it goes away so will the people.

PS I should have said a lot of the people.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Disagree, live sport is the essence of sport if it goes away so will the people.

As a useful general rule, sport on TV needs crowds because it needs reactions.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

As a useful general rule, sport on TV needs crowds because it needs reactions.

Agree, no disrespect at all to say Huddersfield, I can enjoy the game for what is happening on the field, but I can't help but notice all the vast open spaces in the stands and that lends to a personal subliminal reaction as a lack of atmosphere even though I am not there, does that make sense? 

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

The sport will be live, they just wont be there.

See above, I prefer to be at a ground, and I believe lots of others also do.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Agree, no disrespect at all to say Huddersfield, I can enjoy the game for what is happening on the field, but I can't help but notice all the vast open spaces in the stands and that lends to a personal subliminal reaction as a lack of atmosphere even though I am not there, does that make sense? 

Yes, it does.

For example, right now, because I am desperately sad, I have on a screen a twitch relay from the Chinese Professional Baseball League (Taiwan). It's being played under lockdown rules with nobody in the stadium. I'm enjoying it mostly because it's live sport and I've half chosen one team to back. And it also is okay for baseball because in regular season games for long periods the crowd would be quiet anyway. But when something actually happens, it's weird as hell. The only noise is the players.

I couldn't watch football on TV like that even though I quite often watch football first-hand in low level non league like that.

I really struggle with RL on TV when there's no crowd interaction, not because I'm counting empty seats but because when I do go, yes even at London, the people who are involved are a big part of the experience.

[Wakefield Ram]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

As a useful general rule, sport on TV needs crowds because it needs reactions.

You could use sounds recorded from previous matches. Comedy TV shows use recorded laughter successfully. Would be pretty simple I reckon. Just need a sound recordist who understands the game and have a selection of push button sounds for example. Press

1.  "Gerremonside" -  useful at every tackle

2. "Forward pass"

3. "You're blind ref"

4. "Wigan, Wigan, Wigan" , "St Helens, St Helens" etc...or whichever team it is

5. Crowd roars when a try is scored 

6. "Sneeeeeeyd" every time he kicks a goal for Hull

I'm sure people could suggest others but probably 15-20 would cover most reactions.

 

 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Wakefield Ram said:

You could use sounds recorded from previous matches. Comedy TV shows use recorded laughter successfully. Would be pretty simple I reckon. Just need a sound recordist who understands the game and have a selection of push button sounds for example. Press

1.  "Gerremonside" -  useful at every tackle

2. "Forward pass"

3. "You're blind ref"

4. "Wigan, Wigan, Wigan" , "At Helens, At Helens" etc...or whichever team it is

5. Crowd roars when a try is scored 

6. "Sneeeeeeyd" every time he kicks a goal for Hull

 

You could also add recorded laughter after any of the Sky team attempt to explain a rule.

[Angelic Cynic]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Disagree, live sport is the essence of sport if it goes away so will the people.

PS I should have said a lot of the people.

  Some of the very top players perform better when there is a larger,more boisterous crowd.

  I think Ellery Hanley would be one who preferred to play in front of large attendances and when the crowd was more antagonistic towards him he performed at his peak.

  It brings into the discussion about large attendances,fans chanting,and the use of drums/cow bells to 'improve' atmosphere,and whether or not players would prefer a vociferous crowd backing,or play in a more restrained background.

  It's a dangerous move,in my opinion.

  Recently,in the press,a rugby union journalist considers the financial downturn could improve player/fans relationship which has been moving into a Premier League player and fan situation where there is little or no 'connection' - more a complete disconnect.

   The whole emotion of the 'professional/semi-professional sport' requires fans in attendance.

 Take that away and it all becomes amateurish in attitude and application.

   I have yet to see any sporting contest,sans supporter,be anywhere near the level of a sport watched by emotionally charged supporters.  

[rhinos78]

If and when behind closed doors games are shown on TV, is there anyone who wouldnt watch because of the lack of crowd?

Perfect solutions are great in a perfect world, unfortunately things are far from perfect, il take any live content i can get right now and would watch plenty of games i normally wouldnt, aswel as all the games i normally would.