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2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Are you only interested in SL though? What about all the clubs below who would be cut adrift if there was no P&R?

Would it not depend on what happens to the end of P&R? Like under the franchise system Super League has between 2009-2014, Championship clubs could apply for a licence if they met some criteria (didn’t they have to win a competition?). 

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32 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Would it not depend on what happens to the end of P&R? Like under the franchise system Super League has between 2009-2014, Championship clubs could apply for a licence if they met some criteria (didn’t they have to win a competition?). 

No. The year Widnes got in they finished about 5th in the League. Featherstone won the League and Grand Final and over the two games with Widnes put 90 points on them conceding only 4.

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7 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

No. The year Widnes got in they finished about 5th in the League. Featherstone won the League and Grand Final and over the two games with Widnes put 90 points on them conceding only 4.

Had a look, you had to win a Grand Final or Northern Rail Cup to possibly apply for a “licence”. Think it’s also why Barrow were allowed to apply, though didn’t choose to. 

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11 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I don't believe that it true but even if it were the same question can be asked of the fans we never gain because we dont expand the game. A real world example would be Toronto where P+R makes their survival much more difficult. If they go, or are never created there are thousands of fans we miss out on.

If stevenage are your example it's hardly strengthening your point 

The Stevenage thing is a side issue because you said Burton ate the newest league side - there aren’t. 
 

Strange that you see fans as numbers and not people. Yeah who cares if Widnes, Hull KR and Leigh go to the wall as long as there’s a new club in New York. I am an expansionist but it shouldn’t be at the expense of existing clubs and fans, that is madness. 

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14 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Every hybrid solution is an avoidance at admitting key facts that deep down people largely know are true.

P+R is unsuitable for growing a game in new areas, it is unsuitable for selling commercial rights and tv rights, its unsuitable for expanding the sport and makes it riskier and more difficult to grow the businesses that sustain the game.

But, some people like it.

There is no solution that fits both of those arguments, no solution that suffices both sides. But rather a series of solutions that please neither of the parties. 

We can have P+R and please those who want it but the game will struggle to grow and will find expansion nigh on impossible

Of we can have franchises and the old guard will be unhappy, some who feel they should be in SL wont and the game can grow.

There isnt a solution that fits both aspects and any hybrid, rather than take the best of both ends up with the worst

Agreed, so stick with what we have.

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Then accept that the game wont grow and we have made a decision to see the game die but manage its decline. 

How is killing the game in heartland areas like Widnes and Leigh growing the game? Expansion should happen not not at the expense of existing clubs - I don’t see how you can be a rugby league fan if you think that Scotchy. After all the other day you said you didn’t care if the other West Yorks clubs except Leeds die off. 

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13 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The key difference is that its in every country. The FA isn't adding PSG or AC Milan to spread the game. FWIW I like mrfrancos compromise

Each to there own Tommy, I don't.

Anyway the simple question I posed, how do you think it would be recieved if it was a 12 or even a 14 team comp if a team was relegated from 5th bottom?

There was a massive debate on this site on whether your team Leeds Rhino's should be allowed to be relegated should they just happen to have that fate befall them in recent season's, what about still keeping P&R as you state you and Mr Franco still prefare that method but as well as excluding foriegn teams from relegation, and so the situation does not arise in the future and threatens our big clubs with relegation also 'ringfence' Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Warrington and Hull FC so they will also remain safe.

Can you not see how stupid it is to play a League system with perhaps 4 teams excluded from jeopardy.

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12 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Had a look, you had to win a Grand Final or Northern Rail Cup to possibly apply for a “licence”. Think it’s also why Barrow were allowed to apply, though didn’t choose to. 

And as history shows Hela that was a complete sham, just as much as the awarding of SL places through the licence application, it was changed when the 8's were brought in but that in itself backfired no Championship club was ever expected to gain promotion. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And as history shows Hela that was a complete sham, just as much as the awarding of SL places through the licence application, it was changed when the 8's were brought in but that in itself backfired no Championship club was ever expected to gain promotion. 

You’re going to have to enlighten me on why it was a sham. 

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4 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You’re going to have to enlighten me on why it was a sham. 

Because even with that application criteria being met it would have gone no further,  Leigh for example could have done no more League Leaders, GF Winners on more than one occasion, beating SL clubs in the Challenge Cup, and even only losing 3 games in 2 season's were never considered,  it was not promoting them, the RFL didn't have the bottle to relegate anyone from SL.

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Because even with that application criteria being met it would have gone no further,  Leigh for example could have done no more League Leaders, GF Winners on more than one occasion, beating SL clubs in the Challenge Cup, and even only losing 3 games in 2 season's were never considered,  it was not promoting them, the RFL didn't have the bottle to relegate anyone from SL.

Conversely, if teams could do no more to be promoted, does that mean teams could do enough not to be relegated?

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

We know it suits you Harry. You have no problem seeing the game go backwards, you mistake it quite deliberately for Leigh going forwards. 

Off course I do, I am as passionate about my team and the other community clubs in my town as anyone could be. 

You give me the impression that if you didn't have your Leeds Rhinos connection (was that an accident of birth being born and raised in the vicinity) you would have no interest in the sport, I can't ever imagine that you would belong to Championship or CH1 club, or seeing you stood along the touchline with no cover from the elements watching all the levels of the community game, you spout as though you are looking down your nose at all those you consider your underlings, well you know what, I couldn't give a flying one, you enjoy your game and I will enjoy mine.

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Example please Hela from the teams in the closed shop SL era, I have suggested a reason Leigh's application should have been sufficent?

Well, all of the Super League sides from that era managed to put together an application that sufficed. 

Leigh were playing in front of less than 2,000 regularly, probably had no Academy then, as they don’t now and were heading for financial meltdown in 2011. 

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5 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Well, all of the Super League sides from that era managed to put together an application that sufficed. 

Leigh were playing in front of less than 2,000 regularly, probably had no Academy then, as they don’t now and were heading for financial meltdown in 2011. 

Agreed, that was the case in 2011, But the example of Leigh's success I gave were not of that year, they achieved what you introduced to this discussion by winning competitions that entitled them to submit an application.

And relating to your first paragraph, there were three clubs who having been granted a licence were told that it was granted on a proviso that they do something about their grounds, two of those are still operating from the same dilapidated stadia.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Each to there own Tommy, I don't.

Anyway the simple question I posed, how do you think it would be recieved if it was a 12 or even a 14 team comp if a team was relegated from 5th bottom?

There was a massive debate on this site on whether your team Leeds Rhino's should be allowed to be relegated should they just happen to have that fate befall them in recent season's, what about still keeping P&R as you state you and Mr Franco still prefare that method but as well as excluding foriegn teams from relegation, and so the situation does not arise in the future and threatens our big clubs with relegation also 'ringfence' Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Warrington and Hull FC so they will also remain safe.

Can you not see how stupid it is to play a League system with perhaps 4 teams excluded from jeopardy.

Nah I don't. If the point of including foreign teams is to increase player pool/full time contracts and increase TV rights and global interest, then their position is wholly different. There is a substantial difference to a whole range of factors between swapping Castleford for Widnes vs swapping Catalans for Sheffield.

Point being that to drive any benefits at all from international expansion these sides need to be guaranteed a number of seats at the SL table. I like mrfrancos suggestion because it retains the earn on the field idea and expands Super League not just replace English teams. But surely you can see how no broadcaster or sponsor outside of England would invest in a major TV contract when it isn't guaranteed to have a "home team" in the competition for more than 1 year?

P/R is rightly an English sporting tradition, so leave it to the English clubs. If the time comes that there are more French or Canadian teams banging down the door then lets them decide how they want to divvy up their SL places. In Super Rugby for example, the South Africans have P/R but the Aussies and Kiwis don't for example. Super League isn't an exclusively English endeavour and so shouldn't be treated as such.

The chances of all 4 non English sides finishing in the bottom 4 of a 14 team Super League is exceptionally unlikely. That doesn't actually make a difference to the ranking of the worst ranked English club however, they'd still be the 10th best if they finished 10th (unlikely) or 14th in the comp. 

Like I said, once teams have proved themselves in the lower leagues let them up, but leave the P/R to where the game can afford it and wants it - in England. 

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The game can't afford it in England. 

Since P+R returned in 2015 we have seen Bradford go pop less than two years after relegation, Leigh not be able to finish a season with a full squad of players after chasing promotion the year following relegation, Widnes go pop less than a year after relegation. 

Thats quite the body count in 5 completed season when one of them didnt even see anyone promoted or relegated. 

I agree there is debate to be had over whether English teams could afford it, but didn't think it was worth discussing in that post.

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Expansion will happen at the expense of existing clubs. There isnt a model for expansion which doesnt. Even if we stick with P+R the more successful new clubs we get, the further away from the top the struggling heartland clubs get. 

If we keep P+R and get millions invested in Newcastle, Coventry, Wales, London, Nottingham, Sheffield, Edinburgh, Dublin, Toulouse, Montpellier, Ottawa, NYC, Valencia, and they are all SL or near to SL clubs then the likes of Widnes and Leigh are going to struggle anyway. As much as they may attract more in SL, or more challenging to get to SL they will get less at the bottom of the championship or struggling along in League 1. 

Also, No i didnt.

That list of teams is truly laughable, you’re deluded. 

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5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But you are telling me that the game can expand under P+R why is that list laughable? (there was no reason behind that list btw, other than they are expansion areas)

Its also interesting you havent addressed the substance of the post.

Nottingham? Edinburgh? Dublin? Coventry? Sheffield? Wales? There is nothing to suggest there is any investment available in those areas to have a SL team, or even a semi pro team in some of them - you might as well have said Timbuktu and Montevideo. 
 

I don’t even know what your last sentence means, the substance of what post? Very little of what you say has any substance (eg above) so did you mean this thread as a whole?

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Gentlemen ?

 

For me the most sensible areas for investment are ones which can produce potential long term quality players (At present) would be

LONDON/NEWCASTLE (North East/FRANCE (I am talking outside of the heartlands here but places with Rugby League)

All other new areas are IMPORTANT wherever they are Wales/Cornwall etc etc etc,these areas have to be supported through a network of development officers to help and grow the amateur game with the potential step up to League 1 if a club has the potential and local financial support.

Talk of SL clubs here there and everywhere  although I understand the enthusiasm is premature we have to be realistic and sensible:)

 

Paul

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Nottingham? Edinburgh? Dublin? Coventry? Sheffield? Wales? There is nothing to suggest there is any investment available in those areas to have a SL team, or even a semi pro team in some of them - you might as well have said Timbuktu and Montevideo. 
 

I don’t even know what your last sentence means, the substance of what post? Very little of what you say has any substance (eg above) so did you mean this thread as a whole?

Well, I started the thread as being all about TO.  Obviously, that must have been a red herring.

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54 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

There is no fair system for all. All have some level on inbuilt bias. 

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2 minutes ago, SL17 said:

The game has stopped growing since the product went stale.

 

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The Effects of Incarceration on Mental Health

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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