WHAT IF ALL / SOME OF THE MERGERS HAD GONE AHEAD IN 95

[Eddie]

6 hours ago, Poower Lad said:

Would Cumbria and South Yorkshire not been better than the current situation 

 

No

[JohnM]

9 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

If all had gone through the rugby league fanbase would have been decimated in its heartland. 

With the benefit of hindsight, the only proposed merger with any merit in my view is Cumbria. And they should have included Toulouse from the start, as was also proposed, instead of Paris.

In the 25 years since 1995, a good many fans have gone, through age, ill health or worse. That number has to be added to those fans lost to game because they put narrow parochialism ahead of rugby. 

However, in that 25 years, a new generation of fans would have emerged, free from the constraints of the past. 

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, JohnM said:

In the 25 years since 1995, a good many fans have gone, through age, ill health or worse. That number has to be added to those fans lost to game because they put narrow parochialism ahead of rugby. 

However, in that 25 years, a new generation of fans would have emerged, free from the constraints of the past. 

Is opposing mergers parochial then?

The trouble with the 1995 proposals was, with the possible exception of Cumbria (if the original clubs continued as feeders for a regional side), you would have created less than the sum of the merged clubs’ parts from a financial point of view.

Combining Widnes & Wire and Hull FC & Hull KR in particular would have been madness. Four viable, rival clubs with good support mashed into two, pleasing nobody and alienating almost everyone.

[JohnM]

Parochialism. Old boundaries of a quarter of a century ago have gone.  People move house,  people travel further to work so have less geographical loyalty, local govt reorganises, distances between towns shrink as roads and cars improve, more youngsters than ever move away to uni and return looking to the future not the past. There has been a communication  explosion, too. So, a different world. 

Yes Hull V Hull Derby would have lost fans in the short term, but in the long term it is my opinion (and that is all any of us has to offer) the long term effect would have been wholly positive. 

[Man of Kent]

Happy to disagree on this but I just don’t see the long-term advantage of, say, merging the two Hull clubs from a financial sense never mind a cultural sense.

I think Cumbria might just have worked if it was a confederation of Barrow, Workington and Whitehaven rather than a merger in the usual sense, with the games taken around the grounds. More a regional side than a club, but with genuine unity and a sense of purpose unlike a confected mash-up of, say, ‘Calder’. Greater than the sum of its parts.  

[JohnM]

I guess no one actually knows what would have happened. It's easy to speculate because it was not our money that was at stake. My contention is that for each fan who gave up on the game for the reasons stated, new fans could well have come along to replace them, younger fans who did not carry old loyalties. 

I would concede though that mergers on their own  might not have signalled  the start of a new era for the game without an associated grand plan for the game.

[Poower Lad]

8 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Is opposing mergers parochial then?

The trouble with the 1995 proposals was, with the possible exception of Cumbria (if the original clubs continued as feeders for a regional side), you would have created less than the sum of the merged clubs’ parts from a financial point of view.

Combining Widnes & Wire and Hull FC & Hull KR in particular would have been madness. Four viable, rival clubs with good support mashed into two, pleasing nobody and alienating almost everyone.

I agree that the other mergers would have been bonkers , I am at a loss to think why a South Yorkshire and Cumbria team playing in super league in a decent stadium with some decent TV money at the start wouldn’t be better than the current situation where the game at professional and a mature level has gone back in those regions . 

[Mr Plow]

I think the only way it could of worked was for example having Calder in SL but keeping Wakefield, Cas and Fev in the championship as feeder/ reserve teams. 
 
At the end of the day people from WF postcode don’t have a strong enough affiliation with the name Calder. It’s not like Yorkshire or England, you don’t hear people saying they’re proud to  be from Calder.

The only proposed merger that people are still talking about now is Cumbria

[Steve Slater]

1 hour ago, Mr Plow said:

I think the only way it could of worked was for example having Calder in SL but keeping Wakefield, Cas and Fev in the championship as feeder/ reserve teams. 
 
At the end of the day people from WF postcode don’t have a strong enough affiliation with the name Calder. It’s not like Yorkshire or England, you don’t hear people saying they’re proud to  be from Calder.

The only proposed merger that people are still talking about now is Cumbria

I don't think Calder would have worked if Cas, Fev & Wakey had disbanded, same with other proposed mergers, especially Hull & Hull KR, but if you'd kept the existing clubs then also given them an equal share in the new club representing the district, I believe fans would have supported their local club but also gone along to watch the district side, especially if some sort of season ticketing gave them a discount? The fans would have had two clubs to support, meaning more games to watch, which can't be a bad thing?

Twenty five years on you would have had some natural wastage among the traditional clubs but the new representative clubs would have been in a stronger position with bigger crowds.

[Hela Wigmen]

It would have most likely ended a similar way to the later Hull merger with Gateshead Thunder and the Huddersfield-Sheffield Giants. One club would have been retained and others would have come back at a lower level. 

[Hela Wigmen]

Was there any clubs or club chairmen actually keen on any of these proposed mergers? 

[mrfranco]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I appreciate it takes a leap of faith to imagine Cumbrians would get behind a united county side but you feel if it’s going to work anywhere it would be there given it’s ‘otherness’.

The trouble with any proposed Cumbrian merger (or even joint venture with the clubs involved still playing lower down) is that no-one from Cumbria ever seems to support the idea. Which makes it a bit of a non-starter. And as a fan of one of the (numerous) clubs that was supposed to merge back in '95 I understand why they feel that way.

[roversspud]

I have spoken to many Fev fans over the years about the merger and can hand on heart say that not one of them ever said they would watch the new Calder team. To a man they all said they would give up on Rugby rather than follow a manufactured club. Only time would have told us if that was the case.

[Leeds Wire]

20 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Is opposing mergers parochial then?

The trouble with the 1995 proposals was, with the possible exception of Cumbria (if the original clubs continued as feeders for a regional side), you would have created less than the sum of the merged clubs’ parts from a financial point of view.

Combining Widnes & Wire and Hull FC & Hull KR in particular would have been madness. Four viable, rival clubs with good support mashed into two, pleasing nobody and alienating almost everyone.

I remember going to watch Wire at Naughton Park and seeing all the protests against the merger. 

The irony is that it brought both sets of fans together in a united cause! 

[Gooleboy]

27 minutes ago, Leeds Wire said:

I remember going to watch Wire at Naughton Park and seeing all the protests against the merger. 

The irony is that it brought both sets of fans together in a united cause! 

The same thing happened at half time in a Featherstone v Castleford game.

[Trevorkfevfan]

I'm a tad cynical about his! At the time the main objective was to get agreement to super league and provide sky with some fodder to broadcast. I think the whole thing about mergers were a bit of a smokescreen to gain acceptance of super league at the time as the least objectional of the proposals.

Yes, some were actually against the whole principal of selling the rugby league elite to Murdoch.

[Omott91]

4 hours ago, SL17 said:

Toronto,Toulouse and Catalans look very similar at present.

In what way? 

[dkw]

On 12/04/2020 at 23:31, Man of Kent said:

Happy to disagree on this but I just don’t see the long-term advantage of, say, merging the two Hull clubs from a financial sense never mind a cultural sense.

I think Cumbria might just have worked if it was a confederation of Barrow, Workington and Whitehaven rather than a merger in the usual sense, with the games taken around the grounds. More a regional side than a club, but with genuine unity and a sense of purpose unlike a confected mash-up of, say, ‘Calder’. Greater than the sum of its parts.  

Not a chance that would have worked, theres almost no way that would have kept the hardcore RL fans interested let alone entice anyone else in. 6 games each season per ground at most, some fans would travel between Workington and Whitehaven obviously but I doubt it would be big numbers. The complete loss of their own clubs would drive quite a few away from the sport. It would have been ridiculous.

[Oxford]

Look they were all geographically improbable and tribally impossible but Wigan would still be Wigan and keep the Lancs cup forever so Mo thought it sounded great!

But right now it's a brilliant distraction so don't stop the music!

[Oxford]

I know politically it changed but I remember a bloke saying to Billy Burgess "You Cumbrians are all alike!" and Bill saying proudly Eh? I'm a Lancastrian.

The things that made us US matter.

 

[JohnM]

It's not something I feel strongly about either way.  It did not happen so we will never know. 

I do feel strongly though that had it happened, it would not have worked in isolation. It would have needed a massive reboot of the pro-level game to create an attraction, an excitement to generate new fans. 

Our market penetration was so low and our available market so vast that had we a strong, persuasive and charismatic leadership,  we could have grown and expanded. 

The county crikit analogy doesn't work for me, but the overall crikit analogy does. Look at the huge improvement in the popularity of the various one day or shorter versions across the world. 

[Marauder]

On 12/04/2020 at 16:03, Poower Lad said:

Would Cumbria and South Yorkshire not been better than the current situation 

 

Sheffield and Donny where plodding along fine up to this virus, Donny had just started back up delivering coaching into schools and forging better links with the local amateur clubs.

[Wigan Riversider]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

Sheffield and Donny where plodding along fine up to this virus, Donny had just started back up delivering coaching into schools and forging better links with the local amateur clubs.

I would like to see a Cumbrian franchise but don't ask me how it would work.

[Davo5]

27 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

I would like to see a Cumbrian franchise but don't ask me how it would work.

It wouldn't involve Barrow,so in reality it would involve Workington & Whitehaven,2 clubs who haven't got a pot to p##s in.

[Wigan Riversider]

3 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

It wouldn't involve Barrow,so in reality it would involve Workington & Whitehaven,2 clubs who haven't got a pot to p##s in.

Shame as Cumbria is a hotbed for RL.