April 1995

[Keep The Faith]

I found this on YouTube 

 

a certain chairman Stephen ball wasn't happy weren't allowed in 1st division / super league at the time and Maurice Lindsay says he shouldn't be playing with emotions and should face reality  
 

[Blind side johnny]

On 15/04/2020 at 15:41, Keep The Faith said:

I found this on YouTube 

 

a certain chairman Stephen ball wasn't happy weren't allowed in 1st division / super league at the time and Maurice Lindsay says he shouldn't be playing with emotions and should face reality  
 

Who was correct, do you believe?

[DOGFATHER]

I guess we will never know for sure.

I would always side with Ball on the issue though, it is easy to say that my feelings have nothing to do with Batley or Keighley,  nor sentimentality. However, had the same thing happened to Dewsbury and Hunslet or any other club for that matter, my feelings would not alter.

Promotion is the very essence of sport, it shouldn't matter how much money you have, or how big your supporter base, but what results you produce on the field that decides the level you play at, not a committee meeting. It would be like saying if we had a foot race, and you beat me fair and square, we will have a vote to decide who has actually won it. Why bother with the race, in the first place? Why not just have vote to decide who is fastest.

The sides that earn the right to go up, should be allowed to do so, as Ball said at the time, it was about right, wrong and more importantly - integrity. Especially as the decision to refuse promotion was made after the season had ended. 

I'd argue the game has never regained the integrity it lost back then, which has not helped to expand the game, or bring in the vital outside sponsorship money to help to continually grow the game. I believe that many ardent supporters of the game were lost, on the back of that decision alone, and will never return. It highlighted just how parochial the game was, and still is.

I think it is also quite telling that so many of the chosen few, that were selected by the "visionaries" of the time to play in the highest division, didn't make it work either. Lindsay was full of it, pointing the finger at clubs like Featherstone, Batley and Keighley saying they wouldn't make it in the top flight. Yet 25 years on, out of the original 12 teams, only 5 are still in the top division. Oldham, Workington, Bradford, Halifax, London, Paris and Sheffield are now in the championship, league1, or out of business altogether, most have been for some time with no hope of ever returning to the top.

I would have loved to hear Lindsay's repost to the question posed at the very end of the programme about Wigan also being skint and financially mismanaged, just like he had gleefully reported about Featherstone in the Mark Aston cheque bouncing incident. Alas, the presenter closed the show prior to his answer. The fact was, most clubs were mismanaged financially, very few were self sustainable back then. It would appear nothing has really changed in the last 25 years in that regard. The lessons that should have been learned from those mistakes, were ignored.

 

[Dog forever]

7 hours ago, DOGFATHER said:

I guess we will never know for sure.

I would always side with Ball on the issue though, it is easy to say that my feelings have nothing to do with Batley or Keighley,  nor sentimentality. However, had the same thing happened to Dewsbury and Hunslet or any other club for that matter, my feelings would not alter.

Promotion is the very essence of sport, it shouldn't matter how much money you have, or how big your supporter base, but what results you produce on the field that decides the level you play at, not a committee meeting. It would be like saying if we had a foot race, and you beat me fair and square, we will have a vote to decide who has actually won it. Why bother with the race, in the first place? Why not just have vote to decide who is fastest.

The sides that earn the right to go up, should be allowed to do so, as Ball said at the time, it was about right, wrong and more importantly - integrity. Especially as the decision to refuse promotion was made after the season had ended. 

I'd argue the game has never regained the integrity it lost back then, which has not helped to expand the game, or bring in the vital outside sponsorship money to help to continually grow the game. I believe that many ardent supporters of the game were lost, on the back of that decision alone, and will never return. It highlighted just how parochial the game was, and still is.

I think it is also quite telling that so many of the chosen few, that were selected by the "visionaries" of the time to play in the highest division, didn't make it work either. Lindsay was full of it, pointing the finger at clubs like Featherstone, Batley and Keighley saying they wouldn't make it in the top flight. Yet 25 years on, out of the original 12 teams, only 5 are still in the top division. Oldham, Workington, Bradford, Halifax, London, Paris and Sheffield are now in the championship, league1, or out of business altogether, most have been for some time with no hope of ever returning to the top.

I would have loved to hear Lindsay's repost to the question posed at the very end of the programme about Wigan also being skint and financially mismanaged, just like he had gleefully reported about Featherstone in the Mark Aston cheque bouncing incident. Alas, the presenter closed the show prior to his answer. The fact was, most clubs were mismanaged financially, very few were self sustainable back then. It would appear nothing has really changed in the last 25 years in that regard. The lessons that should have been learned from those mistakes, were ignored.

 

Fantastic post, and a good read too dogfather. 

[DOGFATHER]

On 17/04/2020 at 11:32, Blind side johnny said:

Who was correct, do you believe?

What are your thoughts BSJ? Do you think it was the right call at the time?

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, DOGFATHER said:

What are your thoughts BSJ? Do you think was the right call at the time?

So many things happened before and since that it is impossible to be definite either way. I look at what happened to Workington and Oldham and think that they reached too high before crashing to the ground in a worse state than if they had not been in SL. I look at what happened to Dewsbury when we were refused promotion in 2000 and subsequently almost disappeared due to our horrendous financial state. I cannot say what was cause or effect yet do have my own feelings about it all. On the othet hand look at a club like Keighley who were denied the fruits of their success and slowly crumbled away.

In British sport reaching the pinnacle in a league should be based upon sporting prowess on the pitch, yet I can't hep but think that the majority of clubs in RL are actually at their level. Imagine what might happen to either Dewsbury or Batley if we did reach SL: in my opinion we would be like a bonfire night rocket, shooting high then exploding into fragments never to be remade.

In the long term I believe that you were better off staying as you were but, of course, I can never prove this and I know that many, possibly the majority, would disagree with my belief.

[gittinsfan]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

So many things happened before and since that it is impossible to be definite either way. I look at what happened to Workington and Oldham and think that they reached too high before crashing to the ground in a worse state than if they had not been in SL. I look at what happened to Dewsbury when we were refused promotion in 2000 and subsequently almost disappeared due to our horrendous financial state. I cannot say what was cause or effect yet do have my own feelings about it all. On the othet hand look at a club like Keighley who were denied the fruits of their success and slowly crumbled away.

In British sport reaching the pinnacle in a league should be based upon sporting prowess on the pitch, yet I can't hep but think that the majority of clubs in RL are actually at their level. Imagine what might happen to either Dewsbury or Batley if we did reach SL: in my opinion we would be like a bonfire night rocket, shooting high then exploding into fragments never to be remade.

In the long term I believe that you were better off staying as you were but, of course, I can never prove this and I know that many, possibly the majority, would disagree with my belief.

I totally agree with your sentiments re Batley and Dewsbury.No matter how successful they were,I don't think they could ever attract gates big enough to sustain SL.

I have a sneaky feeling Keighley may have made a go of it.Was'nt Cougarmania on a roll in those days.Obviously I have no evidence to back up that feeling.

[DOGFATHER]

I tend to agree with your thoughts and analogy of the firework too. I always drew a comparison to Doncaster who just beat us to it, and followed the same pattern as those clubs you mention.

However, I have never been able to shake that niggling feeling, that given the same breaks as Huddersfield and a few other clubs, maybe we could have made it work in the top division, just as they have.

Exemption from relegation for a few seasons to get established, a salary cap to level the playing field, ensuring we could compete and maybe, just maybe we could have done it. Just as Wakefield, Salford or Huddersfield have. None of those clubs are particularly well supported, yet they have cobbled together some quite creditable seasons over the years.