Super League keen to develop league structure clarity

[Eddie]

18 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes it would , which makes things all the stranger that the RFL introduced a separate competition to try to get the non SL club fans going again ?

Wasn’t the whole idea of the 1895 cup to add a few to the CC final gate though? I suppose the idea was that if any of Widnes, Leigh or Bradford got there, or maybe any of the Cumbrian clubs or Fev it would add a few thousand to the attendance. 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Eddie said:

Wasn’t the whole idea of the 1895 cup to add a few to the CC final gate though? I suppose the idea was that if any of Widnes, Leigh or Bradford got there, or maybe any of the Cumbrian clubs or Fev it would add a few thousand to the attendance. 

That's my point , the RFL know there has been a drop off of neutral fans , I attended 3 in a row , then they introduced licencing , that was me done unless as I put above , either my team or another lower tier club makes the final 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Indeed , the reasons for this being ?

One of them is that the "big boys" only have to win three games and they are there.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

The GF has been going for 25 years though, and CCF attendances held up until 2017. There must be something else as well as Sky promotion etc. 

Essentially just a build up of the GF , Magic , Catalans as RL events , where we used to just have the CC final 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Essentially just a build up of the GF , Magic , Catalans as RL events , where we used to just have the CC final 

There's also been a general decline in interest in the "cup format" more generally in Society. It just doesn't hold the same weight as it once did in the public consciousness. Reverting that trend will be difficult but necessary.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Essentially just a build up of the GF , Magic , Catalans as RL events , where we used to just have the CC final 

i agree. There's a lot more events for people to choose from now. Although to be fair there did always used to be the Premiership Finals at Old Trafford which were a great day out.

I've read that moving the Cup Final to outside of school term time meant that loads of schools that used to run trips could no longer do this. I wonder how much that has affected attendances?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

55 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's also been a general decline in interest in the "cup format" more generally in Society. It just doesn't hold the same weight as it once did in the public consciousness. Reverting that trend will be difficult but necessary.

Yes the Champions League has taken alot of focus away from the FA Cup in recent years.

If you were coming at it from a business perspective and had a blank sheet of paper, I don't believe anybody would come up with a straight knockout format. There's only one guaranteed game (which could be home or away) and you may end up with several blank weeks during the season. It certainly doesn't make financial sense. This is why the Champions League is such a big deal for clubs who get in to it - X number of guaranteed games against European opposition which brings in money from gates, TV and sponsors.

It would therefore make more financial sense for the CC to have a number of guaranteed group games before getting to a reduced knockout stage. These could replace the dreaded loop fixtures. However, for rugby league this would then throw up the conundrum of which teams go in which groups, and playing full-timers against semi-pros etc, so it could bring as many problems at it solves.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Yes the Champions League has taken alot of focus away from the FA Cup in recent years.

If you were coming at it from a business perspective and had a blank sheet of paper, I don't believe anybody would come up with a straight knockout format. There's only one guaranteed game (which could be home or away) and you may end up with several blank weeks during the season. It certainly doesn't make financial sense. This is why the Champions League is such a big deal for clubs who get in to it - X number of guaranteed games against European opposition which brings in money from gates, TV and sponsors.

It would therefore make more financial sense for the CC to have a number of guaranteed group games before getting to a reduced knockout stage. These could replace the dreaded loop fixtures. However, for rugby league this would then throw up the conundrum of which teams go in which groups, and playing full-timers against semi-pros etc, so it could bring as many problems at it solves.

I agree, although at the time, a Knock out comp did make sense financially, as gates were generally significantly higher than regular league games.

It may be that we have so little time at the end of this year to complete the season that we have to split the league into groups and play out like that, which may be a potential test case for a jigged about Challenge cup.

I'm personally in favour of the group stage then knockouts for the cup, especially in place of loop fixtures.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm personally in favour of the group stage then knockouts for the cup, especially in place of loop fixtures.

Yes I think on balance I would rather see this as well. It would be a shame to damage the 'magic of the cup' for the lower-league clubs, but needs must. The bigger problem would be which teams would be in it. You could potentially work it out from the previous year's league placings, with teams finishing top-to-middle of the league structure being in the Challenge Cup, and those teams finishing middle-to-bottom competing in the 1895 Cup. But how long this league structure will last for is anyone's guess. And I wouldn't know whether NCL teams would want to be a part of it or not.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Yes I think on balance I would rather see this as well. It would be a shame to damage the 'magic of the cup' for the lower-league clubs, but needs must. The bigger problem would be which teams would be in it. You could potentially work it out from the previous year's league placings, with teams finishing top-to-middle of the league structure being in the Challenge Cup, and those teams finishing middle-to-bottom competing in the 1895 Cup. But how long this league structure will last for is anyone's guess. And I wouldn't know whether NCL teams would want to be a part of it or not.

Yeah I'd think maybe putting qualifiers for the final places in preseason like the champions league may be the best way? Would also enable qualifiers to be open to as many as possible as you could start them in December if needs be. Geographical diversity should be encouraged in these stages imo.

Places would depend on how many groups you'd have and I'd then place those in line with a seeding system. I'd hope the carrot of guaranteed home games against 1(likely more) super league teams would be enough to get lower division teams onboard.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

There's also been a general decline in interest in the "cup format" more generally in Society. It just doesn't hold the same weight as it once did in the public consciousness. Reverting that trend will be difficult but necessary.

Why necessary ? 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Why necessary ? 

To keep up interest in the cup, if the trend isn't reverted it won't be held.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

i agree. There's a lot more events for people to choose from now. Although to be fair there did always used to be the Premiership Finals at Old Trafford which were a great day out.

I've read that moving the Cup Final to outside of school term time meant that loads of schools that used to run trips could no longer do this. I wonder how much that has affected attendances?

Yes , we had the county cups , the floodlight trophy , the John player ( essentially a RL League cup ) and the premiership play offs , but the main point was , we didn't know who was going to win them , now we do 

It isn't the schools , it is the loss of the labour clubs , and the pub trips that neutrals ran , last CC final I attended was Saints V Catalans at the newly opened Wembley , we went on a coach trip booked from Wigan , there were Wigan fans who'd booked pre semi final who went down to London , but didn't go to the match 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

To keep up interest in the cup, if the trend isn't reverted it won't be held.

Yes it will , but just at lower capacity venues , in fact I'd suggest we go back to moving it around again as we did when Wembley was being rebuilt 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Yes I think on balance I would rather see this as well. It would be a shame to damage the 'magic of the cup' for the lower-league clubs, but needs must. The bigger problem would be which teams would be in it. You could potentially work it out from the previous year's league placings, with teams finishing top-to-middle of the league structure being in the Challenge Cup, and those teams finishing middle-to-bottom competing in the 1895 Cup. But how long this league structure will last for is anyone's guess. And I wouldn't know whether NCL teams would want to be a part of it or not.

So you think fans of lower tier clubs would turn out to watch a SL clubs reserves play them in the cup ? , Seriously ? 

So you think the fans of SL clubs would go to a lower tier club to watch their reserves batter a part time team ?

In a group formatt even if the SL club lost , they'd still have other games to qualify 

Pointless , you really don't understand the idea of knock out sport

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes it will , but just at lower capacity venues , in fact I'd suggest we go back to moving it around again as we did when Wembley was being rebuilt 

And the trend continuing will mean those venues will be increasingly lower capacity? How long before The Totally Wicked stadium is hosting the challenge cup final?

I don't disagree out of hand that Wembley may not be the best venue. However I do think we need to guarantee RL events in the capital and with the infrequency of England games I don't think we can guarantee a replacement.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah I'd think maybe putting qualifiers for the final places in preseason like the champions league may be the best way? Would also enable qualifiers to be open to as many as possible as you could start them in December if needs be. Geographical diversity should be encouraged in these stages imo.

Places would depend on how many groups you'd have and I'd then place those in line with a seeding system. I'd hope the carrot of guaranteed home games against 1(likely more) super league teams would be enough to get lower division teams onboard.

No chance 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

And the trend continuing will mean those venues will be increasingly lower capacity? How long before The Totally Wicked stadium is hosting the challenge cup final?

I don't disagree out of hand that Wembley may not be the best venue. However I do think we need to guarantee RL events in the capital and with the infrequency of England games I don't think we can guarantee a replacement.

Quite possibly , but you aren't going to stop the decline 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

No chance 

Ah yes

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , we had the county cups , the floodlight trophy , the John player ( essentially a RL League cup ) and the premiership play offs , but the main point was , we didn't know who was going to win them , now we do 

I'm not so sure about this. In the period from 1986-1996 just before SL, Wigan won the JPS/Regal Trophy 7 out of 11 times and won the Challenge Cup 8 times. I do agree though, that the different comps provided more interest than the loop fixtures.

10 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It isn't the schools , it is the loss of the labour clubs , and the pub trips that neutrals ran , last CC final I attended was Saints V Catalans at the newly opened Wembley , we went on a coach trip booked from Wigan , there were Wigan fans who'd booked pre semi final who went down to London , but didn't go to the match 

Do these institutions now run trips to Magic Weekend instead, or have they just stopped doing them completely?

[Tommygilf]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Quite possibly , but you aren't going to stop the decline 

And therein is the point. Perhaps the decline in interest in straight knock out competitions is inevitable, in which case, change the competition.

The challenge cup needs a radical rethink in approach, the clubs want/need guaranteed home games. Every other major sport now has its primary cup competition consisting of a guaranteed number of group games then knockouts. Both the two major examples are hugely successful even though teams can (and often do) come up against teams from their own domestic league. 

 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Ah yes

So you think fans will watch group games that mean essentially nothing , as has been pointed out by our good friend Scotchy on many occasions and by many others , even in the middle 8 s with promotion and relegation on the line , the fans didn't increase at the SL clubs , they did slightly at the top Championship clubs as they were chasing something , but you send Leeds down to London Skolars or to Keighley for a dead rubber and see how many turn up ?

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Do these institutions now run trips to Magic Weekend instead, or have they just stopped doing them completely?

The institutions barely exist anymore sadly.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I'm not so sure about this. In the period from 1986-1996 just before SL, Wigan won the JPS/Regal Trophy 7 out of 11 times and won the Challenge Cup 8 times. I do agree though, that the different comps provided more interest than the loop fixtures.

Do these institutions now run trips to Magic Weekend instead, or have they just stopped doing them completely?

Yes we ALL know about a Wigans buying of trophy's with Central Park , but prior to that teams came up , went down , won things , didn't win things , it isn't going to return , no point trying 

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you think fans will watch group games that mean essentially nothing , as has been pointed out by our good friend Scotchy on many occasions and by many others , even in the middle 8 s with promotion and relegation on the line , the fans didn't increase at the SL clubs , they did slightly at the top Championship clubs as they were chasing something , but you send Leeds down to London Skolars or to Keighley for a dead rubber and see how many turn up ?

I think they'll watch them more if they're included in Season tickets (as loop fixtures are) and enable "cup rugby" to be played without the pressure of relegation.

I'd bet that Leeds would get more in that than we did against Workington in the 6th round of the cup last time. 

Keighley and London Skolars are both bottom end League 1 sides, if they qualified for the group stages it would be a great story for them because the chances are they wouldn't.