Super League keen to develop league structure clarity

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you think fans of lower tier clubs would turn out to watch a SL clubs reserves play them in the cup ? , Seriously ? 

So you think the fans of SL clubs would go to a lower tier club to watch their reserves batter a part time team ?

In a group formatt even if the SL club lost , they'd still have other games to qualify 

Why would they be reserves? Did SL teams field reserve sides in the Middle 8s? Did fans of lower tier clubs turn out to watch their sides play the SL teams in the Middle 8s? What does the available evidence say?

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Pointless , you really don't understand the idea of knock out sport

Now why did you have to lower the level with a cheap comment like that? I am perfectly well aware of the "idea of knock out sport". I could equally well respond by saying that you really don't understand the idea of running a business. But that would be a daft thing to say. I try to empathise with all viewpoints, and that is how I form my decisions. But just because you disagree with my viewpoints, doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the arguments for and against.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes we ALL know about a Wigans buying of trophy's with Central Park , but prior to that teams came up , went down , won things , didn't win things , it isn't going to return , no point trying 

Prior to that? You mean 40 years ago?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

10 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes we ALL know about a Wigans buying of trophy's with Central Park , but prior to that teams came up , went down , won things , didn't win things , it isn't going to return , no point trying 

So when are you talking about? We're getting in to "Make Rugby League Great Again" territory here. Precisely what was the time period when Rugby League was great in your eyes? And if you're saying that period isn't going to ever return, what exactly are you moaning about?

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Why would they be reserves? Did SL teams field reserve sides in the Middle 8s? Did fans of lower tier clubs turn out to watch their sides play the SL teams in the Middle 8s? What does the available evidence say?

Now why did you have to lower the level with a cheap comment like that? I am perfectly well aware of the "idea of knock out sport". I could equally well respond by saying that you really don't understand the idea of running a business. But that would be a daft thing to say. I try to empathise with all viewpoints, and that is how I form my decisions. But just because you disagree with my viewpoints, doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the arguments for and against.

They didn't field reserves in the middle 8s because they were fighting relegation , not playing a glorified friendly that they could afford to lose 

I fully understand business , had them , built from scratch , been a director of a Championship/SL club for 4 years 

Witnessed a 12,000 attendance at Hilton Park for a televised Knock out match against Wigan 

Play that game untelevised in a group match and there'll be 6/7 K from Leigh and 500 from Wigan 

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

So when are you talking about? We're getting in to "Make Rugby League Great Again" territory here. Precisely what was the time period when Rugby League was great in your eyes? And if you're saying that period isn't going to ever return, what exactly are you moaning about?

I'm not moaning , have I accused you of moaning about poor CC final attendances ? , Or is debate me ' moaning ' and you putting forward reasoned debate ? 

There is no magical structure that will increase interest in the CC Final , personally as I said earlier , fans are now bored of Wembley , taking it on the rd is about all you can do to bring interest back , either that or a succssession of new finalists and winners , group stages will not make that happen 

[GUBRATS]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think they'll watch them more if they're included in Season tickets (as loop fixtures are) and enable "cup rugby" to be played without the pressure of relegation.

I'd bet that Leeds would get more in that than we did against Workington in the 6th round of the cup last time. 

Keighley and London Skolars are both bottom end League 1 sides, if they qualified for the group stages it would be a great story for them because the chances are they wouldn't.

 

So you want to increase ST prices ? For games against lower tier teams ?

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

They didn't field reserves in the middle 8s because they were fighting relegation , not playing a glorified friendly that they could afford to lose 

I fully understand business , had them , built from scratch , been a director of a Championship/SL club for 4 years 

Witnessed a 12,000 attendance at Hilton Park for a televised Knock out match against Wigan 

Play that game untelevised in a group match and there'll be 6/7 K from Leigh and 500 from Wigan 

We were persistently told that hardly any teams took a significant following to the super league fixtures so those figures would actually be well in line.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

So you want to increase ST prices ? For games against lower tier teams ?

That's not what I said is it, its a season ticket with the same number of home fixtures as now - with some being in the cup rather than league, indeed its the same number as under the 8s. So no change there then.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

We were persistently told that hardly any teams took a significant following to the super league fixtures so those figures would actually be well in line.

So you agree then ? 

I was just in going to edit it down to 4/5 from Leigh as you replied , considering it being a group game rather than a SL match 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

That's not what I said is it, its a season ticket with the same number of home fixtures as now - with some being in the cup rather than league, indeed its the same number as under the 8s. So no change there then.

So fans get to watch Whitehaven and Oldham instead of Salford and Saints for the same price ? 

That'll work

[Blind side johnny]

How is this "clarity" coming along guys?

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

So fans get to watch Whitehaven and Oldham instead of Salford and Saints for the same price ? 

That'll work

That's precisely what was offered in the 8s and is currently offered by the cup (but for an extra price because they're not included). Obviously you know that's not what was meant. Only the top clubs would qualify for a spot so you'd assume Fev, Leigh, TO, London, Bradford, Sheffield etc, all Super League pretenders, would be pushing for that opportunity. All are potential Super League teams so I don't see any major difference?

By all means though lets sod the non super league teams from the cup altogether? Surely that's your logical conclusion. I mean I want the lower leagues to remain involved but if you don't just say it!

[GUBRATS]

34 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

That's precisely what was offered in the 8s and is currently offered by the cup (but for an extra price because they're not included). Obviously you know that's not what was meant. Only the top clubs would qualify for a spot so you'd assume Fev, Leigh, TO, London, Bradford, Sheffield etc, all Super League pretenders, would be pushing for that opportunity. All are potential Super League teams so I don't see any major difference?

By all means though lets sod the non super league teams from the cup altogether? Surely that's your logical conclusion. I mean I want the lower leagues to remain involved but if you don't just say it!

Ah right , so these groups are made up of the top 6/8 in the Championship , so groups of what ? , 5 , so 2 lower tier teams and 3 SL teams , and how is this different to loop fixtures ?

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Ah right , so these groups are made up of the top 6/8 in the Championship , so groups of what ? , 5 , so 2 lower tier teams and 3 SL teams , and how is this different to loop fixtures ?

Different competition and means the league season isn't lopsided.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Different competition and means the league season isn't lopsided.

But you still have the potential for Saints to play Leeds/Wigan/Hull 6 times a season 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I fully understand business

Good for you. I fully understand knockout tournaments. 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

But you still have the potential for Saints to play Leeds/Wigan/Hull 6 times a season 

That's the nature of having the same teams enter multiple competitions. Its also a different issue to making the league unequal to break even. 

I think you could have a host of different teams going for the non SL spots, opening places up to Elite 1 teams for example or teams from less well recognised RL countries. The championship sides would obviously be favourites but as we know following sports teams what does being favourites mean eh

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Good for you. I fully understand knockout tournaments. 

Then you understand the nature of the immediate jeapody involved , and how that is more attractive to the casual ' supporter ' than a group situation where a lower tier club could beat a SL club and still not go through , but the beaten team could 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Then you understand the nature of the immediate jeapody involved , and how that is more attractive to the casual ' supporter ' than a group situation where a lower tier club could beat a SL club and still not go through , but the beaten team could 

That must be why nobody is interested in the UEFA Champions League...

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Then you understand the nature of the immediate jeapody involved , and how that is more attractive to the casual ' supporter ' than a group situation where a lower tier club could beat a SL club and still not go through , but the beaten team could 

I think that was true at one point, but isn't quite the case any more, otherwise the FA cup would have bulging attendances and Champions league group games would be on groupon 

As you've pointed out, knockout games only really attract attention when there is a good chance either side could win, that's why most knockout stages of modern competitions are qualified by some form of group stage. It would also guarantee that we could get our best games, including our best clubs, on FTA with some regularity. Cricket invented a whole new version of the sport (the Hundred) to get that, I don't think we need to go that far and can ensure there is still merit to how teams earn places.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I'm not moaning , have I accused you of moaning about poor CC final attendances ? , Or is debate me ' moaning ' and you putting forward reasoned debate ? 

Thanks for acknowledging my well reasoned debate. I notice that you didn't answer this question though:

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

So when are you talking about? We're getting in to "Make Rugby League Great Again" territory here. Precisely what was the time period when Rugby League was great in your eyes?

I'm struggling to understand your rationale for your different views. You spoke about not going to the cup final because of the introduction of licencing, but if that was the case then why do you still not go now? Is it really because of licencing, or is it just because you've lost interest in it for other reasons as you say, such as the same teams competing in it regularly? If it's the latter, then how is the current period different to the 80s and 90s pre-SL? We've had 8 different finalists and 5 different winners in the last 10 years. In the 10-year period pre-SL between 1986-95 we had 8 different finalists and 3 different winners. What is the golden era of rugby league that today's game is not living up to? Or is it just that your team isn't doing as well now as it has in the past, and that your levels of interest peak and trough alongside the highs and lows of your club?

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think that was true at one point, but isn't quite the case any more, otherwise the FA cup would have bulging attendances and Champions league group games would be on groupon 

As you've pointed out, knockout games only really attract attention when there is a good chance either side could win, that's why most knockout stages of modern competitions are qualified by some form of group stage. It would also guarantee that we could get our best games, including our best clubs, on FTA with some regularity. Cricket invented a whole new version of the sport (the Hundred) to get that, I don't think we need to go that far and can ensure there is still merit to how teams earn places.

Just play it as a SL only contest then , 4 groups of 3 , 4 semi finalists , done 

 

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Thanks for acknowledging my well reasoned debate. I notice that you didn't answer this question though:

I'm struggling to understand your rationale for your different views. You spoke about not going to the cup final because of the introduction of licencing, but if that was the case then why do you still not go now? Is it really because of licencing, or is it just because you've lost interest in it for other reasons as you say, such as the same teams competing in it regularly? If it's the latter, then how is the current period different to the 80s and 90s pre-SL? We've had 8 different finalists and 5 different winners in the last 10 years. In the 10-year period pre-SL between 1986-95 we had 8 different finalists and 3 different winners. What is the golden era of rugby league that today's game is not living up to? Or is it just that your team isn't doing as well now as it has in the past, and that your levels of interest peak and trough alongside the highs and lows of your club?

So you assume I am still moaning ?

Yes the introduction of licencing almost did end my interest in the pro sport , I stopped attending my teams games apart from the odd away day out 

Yes licencing has now ended , and if my team makes the CC Final ( unlikely ) I will attend , similarily if another lower tier team gets there I might well attend then , unfortunately the damage was done , it very much is a ' them and us ' situation 

Just like football the sport has changed , for the better ? , No not really , it won't change back unfortunately , we will see the same faces at the same venues with increasingly lower attendances , maybe you aren't old enough to appreciate what we had in the past ?

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Just play it as a SL only contest then , 4 groups of 3 , 4 semi finalists , done 

 

Thats just taking your bat and ball home and sulking. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

41 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you assume I am still moaning ?

I must confess, some of your posts do come across that way, so I apologise if that isn't the case.

42 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Just like football the sport has changed , for the better ? , No not really , it won't change back unfortunately , we will see the same faces at the same venues with increasingly lower attendances , maybe you aren't old enough to appreciate what we had in the past ?

Maybe I'm not old enough, so please humour me and tell me when this period in the past was. I presume we've established it wasn't the mid 80s to early 90s just pre-SL, because you weren't a fan of Wigan's domination. So when was it?