RFL faces promotion and relegation conundrum

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m lost at the premise that we can’t relegate sides from Super League because we won’t have enough time to complete the season but the Championship will be fine to finish and that we can promote teams from there. 

The Championship won't complete this year 

[Hela Wigmen]

10 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The Championship won't complete this year 

So the discussions on promote a team or two, as would the discussion about relegating any side from Super League, will be redundant if Rugby League can not complete under its current structure, which was voted for by the clubs. 

[Robthegasman]

For me this is very simple.

There cannot be ANY relegation or promotion this year with any of the divisions.

Too many fixtures at best will be lost,though I suspect that the season realistically is over.

And that is why I don’t think there should be ANY relegation or promotion.

End of story.

[HarrogateKnights]

We are 3-5 games in depending on who had what called off due to the weather plus challenge Cup rounds . If it was me I would cancel the 2020 season now. If any rugby can be played arrange televised friendlies between traditional rivals but not for league points and if enough rugby can be played arrange the challenge cup to continue with possibility of bringing back a Yorkshire and Lancashire cup in some format maybe a pool stage and a winner from each grand final. The earliest training could start which is highly doubtful is 8th May, I think we will be looking at mid June so be ready for start of July at the earliest for a behind doors games. Straight away that rules out Wembley for Challenge Cup final 

[RP London]

I wouldnt scrap the league yet.. but i think there are plenty of chances to re arrange the structure to have a complete a season as possible that can end with a play off set and grand final.. you could split the league in 2 (lets say east and west) and have them play each other twice then the top 3 of each league enter a "new" one off play off format. You could keep the league as "one whole" and play each other once with a play off at the end etc... there is plenty that can be done.

The key, though, is that 2021 starts as close to the planned date as possible. The 2020 season adapts to that.. all this talk of the "meaning" of the matches already played this year is irrelevant and pointless, they were and are meaningful as they were when they were played. 

IF the 2020 season has to be scrapped then it is scrapped, it is not randomly held over to 2021 to finish off because then you are messing up 2 years and that is just daft. We can take a lead from other sports here, they are trying to complete seasons but if not done by certain points then they are working out how to end them in the best way forward. For some (Holland) it is a case of voiding entire seasons.. and except for the odd team most clubs and spectators have sympathy for the situation. 

why we are tying ourselves in knots trying to work out whether people will feel retrospectively robbed of watching a competitive match (the daftest thing i have heard for while) or how to make a complicated strange situation even more complicated and strange than it needs to be is beyond me... if we cannot somehow finish the 2020 season by around November (in some shape or form) then we scrap the season (mainly because it will mean the season is starting very late anyway!). This is a sport that already has ingrained in it a Grand Final for the winner so we have loads of possibilities of how to get there as the league does not have to be "fair" as it does without a play off structure... i am sure we can work something out!

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, Snowys Backside said:

The existence of the sport far outweighs going from 12 to 14 teams. If they don't like it, tough !

That sounds like an ultimatum from you Snowy, have you decided what will happen, as I have said if it means taking money away from clubs not a chucking fance, Leneghan even before Covid (and with the backing of his cohorts at other SL clubs) was getting the Championship and L1 primed and ready to look forward to recieving Zilch from a central payout come the new contract and that was based on 12 teams not 14, Toronto have eased that shareout but you can bet your bottom dollar they won't desire an increase in clubs sharing the divi. 

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, wiganermike said:

No, they were and will remain a part of the corresponding 2020 league competitions. If those competitions cannot be completed that will not make those games that were played into friendlies. They would still be league fixtures only from a league that unfortunately would have been abandoned (should it come to that).

Hope it doesn't come to that and hostilities can be resumed by carrying the existing results over, whenever we get on the field again.

All the Toronto sympathisers are not looking at anything to do with 'fairness' the combined PHEW they exhausted in expectation of a 're-rack' for this season would be enough to exceed gale force 12.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Hope it doesn't come to that and hostilities can be resumed by carrying the existing results over, whenever we get on the field again.

All the Toronto sympathisers are not looking at anything to do with 'fairness' the combined PHEW they exhausted in expectation of a 're-rack' for this season would be enough to exceed gale force 12.

Hopefully it will I agree Harry, but you and I can both see the chances of that are slimming.

I'm of the view the 2021 season cannot be compromised or extended in any way - England's success at the world cup is far too important for that. So the 2020 season, whatever form it takes, has to finish by November at the latest for me. I'm not of the call off the season we're all doomed mindset, but am coming round to the idea that the 2020 champions might be asterisked for the rest of history.

[Harry Stottle]

27 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Hopefully it will I agree Harry, but you and I can both see the chances of that are slimming.

I'm of the view the 2021 season cannot be compromised or extended in any way - England's success at the world cup is far too important for that. So the 2020 season, whatever form it takes, has to finish by November at the latest for me. I'm not of the call off the season we're all doomed mindset, but am coming round to the idea that the 2020 champions might be asterisked for the rest of history.

I'm not expecting any resumption of this season at all.

And I think those who are championing a return even behind closed doors are just being selfish or plain stupid, when you watch the news and see the heartache that families are going through by the loss of loved ones because people simply cannot abide to the rules the government is making and requesting to not only to protect themselves but to protect others from this abhorrent disease it makes one wonder what is going through their mind? It reminds me of when you see a car being driven recklessly and at speed in built up area's, I don't give one fig if the driver raps himself around a tree and kills himself, but I have real sympathy for any innocent person they involve and take with them.

Rant over back to your statement, if the government sees fit to lift the restrictions and as been suggested the game can go ahead by July that will have been April, May and June we would have lost I still think that would enable time enough with a little rejigging to recommence and complete the season by December, don't forget that lads who have been on international duty have put up with this season extension for a long time, it would have happened this season to the elite few who would have been playing in the test series v Aus, the 2021 would not have been put on hold to accomodate the international player's would it? All we would be doing is opening up the number of player's performing to an extended season.

[Griff]

This depends on so many unknowns.

We've no idea when we'll get under way again.  It's unlikely that mass gatherings will be the first thing on Boris's mind once we get out and about again.  Indeed the Irish have already said there'll be none before September.

$uperleague could start off by playing behind closed doors for the TV money.  But that makes no sense for Divisions 2 and 3.  They'd just have costs and no revenue.

If we got through the Challenge Cup, a cut down 23 game $uperleague and a 13/10 game Div 2 and 3, I'd see that as success of a sort.

One things for sure, contracts make it imperative that we need to finish whatever we decide on by 30 November.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

I'm not expecting any resumption of this season at all.

And I think those who are championing a return even behind closed doors are just being selfish or plain stupid, when you watch the news and see the heartache that families are going through by the loss of loved ones because people simply cannot abide to the rules the government is making and requesting not only to protect themselves but to protect others from this abhorrent disease it makes one wonder what is going through their mind? It reminds me of when you see a car being driven recklessly and at speed in built up area's, I don't give one fig if the driver raps himself around a tree and kills himself, but I have real sympathy for any innocent person they involve and take with them.

Rant over back to your statement, if the government sees fit to lift the restrictions and as been suggested the game can go ahead by July that will have been April, May and June we would have lost I still think that would enable time enough with a little rejigging to recommence and complete the season by December, don't forget that lads who have been on international duty have put up with this season extension for a long time, it would have happened this season to the elite few who would have been playing in the test series v Aus, the 2021 would not have been put on hold to accomodate the international player's would it? All we would be doing is opening up the number of player's performing to an extended season.

I think aiming for November is best of a bad situation. December is well into a normal Preseason. Even under extended seasons for internationals most are over by the middle of November. An extra 6 weeks on top of that is to the end of December.

Nevertheless I think most sports are resigned to at least some matches being behind closed doors to begin with.

The longer this goes on for the greater chance the remainder of the season is totally changed imo. The problems of multiple games in hand, international travel and player contracts may force that.

[Griff]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The longer this goes on for the greater chance the remainder of the season is totally changed imo. The problems of multiple games in hand, international travel and player contracts may force that.

International travel is another issue.  I think Toronto could compete if they play all their games in the UK - which is far from ideal, but then none of this is ideal.

Doesn't work for the French though.  It wouldn't surprise me if they have to sit this season out.  The chances of France and the UK lifting restrictions at the same time is close to zero.  Then there's the availability of air travel.

[RP London]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I'm not expecting any resumption of this season at all.

And I think those who are championing a return even behind closed doors are just being selfish or plain stupid, when you watch the news and see the heartache that families are going through by the loss of loved ones because people simply cannot abide to the rules the government is making and requesting to not only to protect themselves but to protect others from this abhorrent disease it makes one wonder what is going through their mind? It reminds me of when you see a car being driven recklessly and at speed in built up area's, I don't give one fig if the driver raps himself around a tree and kills himself, but I have real sympathy for any innocent person they involve and take with them.

Rant over back to your statement, if the government sees fit to lift the restrictions and as been suggested the game can go ahead by July that will have been April, May and June we would have lost I still think that would enable time enough with a little rejigging to recommence and complete the season by December, don't forget that lads who have been on international duty have put up with this season extension for a long time, it would have happened this season to the elite few who would have been playing in the test series v Aus, the 2021 would not have been put on hold to accomodate the international player's would it? All we would be doing is opening up the number of player's performing to an extended season.

to be fair i dont think anyone advocates doing anything that would harm other people or the players themselves. I would just assume that everyone who is talking about the resumption of playing etc is using the full "terms and conditions" caveat that is always used when the BBC talk about this sort of thing with cricket and football and RU etc.. that "it is subject to the 5 criteria the govt has set out being met" ie that there is adequate testing involved and safety standards etc etc.. 

We cannot all keep saying that (as it would make everything very tedious) but, certainly for me, everything i suggest is based around these things being met so that it is safe to do this.. otherwise you just can the season and start again. 

I think it is fair to say that we are not fully safe until there is a vaccine so we have to bow to public health England on exactly when we can do ANYTHING. They will not allow us to re start if it is not safe to do so, this has been said about all sport, therefore no matter what we plan or is said here it is all caveated by "when it is safe, and the govt is happy".

to say that people dont care about the welfare side of this not just for players is very unfair IMHO

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hope it doesn't come to that and hostilities can be resumed by carrying the existing results over, whenever we get on the field again.

All the Toronto sympathisers are not looking at anything to do with 'fairness' the combined PHEW they exhausted in expectation of a 're-rack' for this season would be enough to exceed gale force 12.

But in your mind it's fair for a team to  be possibly relegated after going all season without a home game and it's fair for your own team to be promoted and replace them after your  biggest rival are prevented from competing due to international travel restrictions.

Not sure your the right person to be giving lectures on fairness.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

But in your mind it's fair for a team to  be possibly relegated after going all season without a home game and it's fair for your own team to be promoted and replace them after your  biggest rival are prevented from competing due to international travel restrictions.

Not sure your the right person to be giving lectures on fairness.

Thats obviously a good counter to the fairness argument. It also can't be quashed by the "but they play in our competition" mantra either.

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

But in your mind it's fair for a team to  be possibly relegated after going all season without a home game and it's fair for your own team to be promoted and replace them after your  biggest rival are prevented from competing due to international travel restrictions.

Not sure your the right person to be giving lectures on fairness.

The player's  of Toronto will be in familiar surroundings at home in bed, if they play all theie fixtures 'away' it would be far far easier on the player's than the to and froing across the Atlantic they are scheduled for. 

[Davo5]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The player's  of Toronto will be in familiar surroundings at home in bed, if they play all theie fixtures 'away' it would be far far easier on the player's than the to and froing across the Atlantic they are scheduled for. 

Are you seriously saying Toronto playing all their games in the UK is not a disadvantage ? The Toronto players are well used to trans Atlantic travel and so it would be far easier for their opponents to play them in Warrington for example,but you have your Leigh goggles on so no point in taking this further.

[Griff]

57 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Are you seriously saying Toronto playing all their games in the UK is not a disadvantage ? 

From a purely performance view, I'd seriously say that.

[jimmyv007]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I'm not expecting any resumption of this season at all.

And I think those who are championing a return even behind closed doors are just being selfish or plain stupid, when you watch the news and see the heartache that families are going through by the loss of loved ones because people simply cannot abide to the rules the government is making and requesting to not only to protect themselves but to protect others from this abhorrent disease it makes one wonder what is going through their mind? It reminds me of when you see a car being driven recklessly and at speed in built up area's, I don't give one fig if the driver raps himself around a tree and kills himself, but I have real sympathy for any innocent person they involve and take with them.

Rant over back to your statement, if the government sees fit to lift the restrictions and as been suggested the game can go ahead by July that will have been April, May and June we would have lost I still think that would enable time enough with a little rejigging to recommence and complete the season by December, don't forget that lads who have been on international duty have put up with this season extension for a long time, it would have happened this season to the elite few who would have been playing in the test series v Aus, the 2021 would not have been put on hold to accomodate the international player's would it? All we would be doing is opening up the number of player's performing to an extended season.

Afternoon Harry. While I fully agree with your point about protecting people and people have lost loved ones. If we simply write off this season there will be no more professional rugby league in this country. We need to find some way of getting revenue in from Sky / PPV over the next 8 months to ensure the future of this sport going forward.

[Angelic Cynic]

I'm struggling to see The Ashes series being played.Huge financial loss.

I'm struggling to see The Challenge Cup Final being played at Wembley.The RFL will not be reimbursed any money,I suggest.Huge financial loss.

We are now reading about no relegation suggestions from a club already happily positioned in Super League - https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/hull-kr-coach-tony-smiths-warning-look-after-club-owners-or-lose-them-2551958 

If the 'elite' league has to go part-time will the cash-strapped governing body/bodies still go for promotion and relegation or will they attempt to grow the sport,slowly back up from the bottom,without promotion and relegation,after contracting the number of clubs - post pandemic?

I think the minds should be concentrating beyond the playing season of 2020.This year has gone..

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Are you seriously saying Toronto playing all their games in the UK is not a disadvantage ? The Toronto players are well used to trans Atlantic travel and so it would be far easier for their opponents to play them in Warrington for example,but you have your Leigh goggles on so no point in taking this further.

The Toronto player's have not experienced the amount of travelling they are/where scheduled to do this season Dave just look at their fixtures if you don't agree, now they are in SL the luxury of playing all the away games then in Toronto for a long period as was the case before in the Championship(s) does not apply, have a look then tell me I'm wrong.

[Davo5]

40 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The Toronto player's have not experienced the amount of travelling they are/where scheduled to do this season Dave just look at their fixtures if you don't agree, now they are in SL the luxury of playing all the away games then in Toronto for a long period as was the case before in the Championship(s) does not apply, have a look then tell me I'm wrong.

On this subject you’ve never been right.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

On this subject you’ve never been right.

So you have not looked at the Toronto fixture schedule then Dav?

But,all we do, all of us on this site is speculate and put our views and desires forward, none of us are right or wrong until proven otherwise, it's all opinions.

I have been involved in 3 big discussions on these pages and completely outnumbered, first was the referendum, the second was the general election and the third is Toronto won't last, just waiting for the hat trick to come to fruition.

Smug mode!

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

So you have not looked at the Toronto fixture schedule then Dav?

But,all we do, all of us on this site is speculate and put our views and desires forward, none of us are right or wrong until proven otherwise, it's all opinions.

I have been involved in 3 big discussions on these pages and completely outnumbered, first was the referendum, the second was the general election and the third is Toronto won't last, just waiting for the hat trick to come to fruition.

Smug mode!

I agreed with you on 2 of them!

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agreed with you on 2 of them!

Well one of us will be getting the hat trick, not very soon (sadly,  chuckle) but it will come.

PS Tommy, have you looked at Toronto's cross Atlantic Schedule? Would you agree that it is far more arduous than in any other season they have been in existence?