‘The next best thing to football in the North of England’

[Man of Kent]

Interesting comments in the last 15 minutes or so by Michael Carter on the latest Forty-20 podcast

Says transatlantic expansion is a utopian dream and rugby league should concentrate on exploiting untapped potential in the North. His idea of expanding the game is to make it attractive enough that Everton fans watch Saints at home when the former are playing away. 

Perhaps in the Covid world that is the way forward for rugby league? 

[Hela Wigmen]

It’s more of a utopian dream to expect people from Liverpool to start following Saints. 

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

It’s more of a utopian dream to expect people from Liverpool to start following Saints. 

Not even a utopian dream, just a ridiculous notion. 

[paulwalker71]

Why do they need to be alternatives? 

Given that everything transatlantic is funded completely independently, with no financial input from SL, how does it preclude SL from expanding across the North of England (something we have conspicuously failed to do for the last 100 years, by the way). 

More small time thinking from Michael Carter

[Man of Kent]

35 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

It’s more of a utopian dream to expect people from Liverpool to start following Saints. 

Why? It’s just down the road.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Why? It’s just down the road.

Same reason people from leeds don't suddenly pick up castleford or people from Manchester don't pick up blackburn

[Tommygilf]

He's said this before. The limited sum of his ambition is to be the second best followed sport after football in the north of England. Bearing in mind he comes from Hull, arguably the only city that is rugby first in the country, and own Wakefield, one of if not the largest city to not have had a football league team.

Having met the bloke I just think he's a bit unambitious, or recognises that if more teams with money come in, from North America, France or wherever in the UK, his own club is likely to struggle to keep up.

I also thinks he doesn't understand how popularity works. Rugby league has no more reason to succeed in Liverpool than it does in Birmingham. Just because its in the "north" doesn't make it untapped RL potential by default.

He's managed to bring together the worst of the minimal risk accountancy model of Nigel Wood and the throw the towel in if its not on the M62 attitude of some RL fans.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm not sure that's right. People dont only.support the team from the town they are from 

RL needs to expand its base and catchment areas goodison park is as close to saints as headingley is to Oulton. Its absolutely possible to attract fans from 20mins away. 

I have no idea what that has to do with Toronto and NA though

True, but that tends to work upwards in terms of size of place for new areas of support.

Without family or other links people from bigger places don't tend to travel to smaller ones.

[Martyn Sadler]

I haven't heard the podcast, so I'm reluctant to comment in any detail on what Michael said.

But the expression "utopian dream" doesn't really do justice to Transatlantic Rugby League.

Given that 10,000 people in Toronto saw the Wolfpack clinch promotion last year, it seems foolish to describe that reality as a utopian dream.

It would have been a few years ago, but not now.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

That's just a branding thing though, it's not a massive thing (especially not for saints who could rebrand to saints and nobody would even notice). 

Everton itself is a tiny tiny place

Yes but half of liverpool and Merseyside is brought up to support them and crucially they are based in and are known as a Liverpool team 

I get the branding thing but that in and of itself isn't a solution. Ask our Canuck friends on here how many torontonians travel to hamilton for sport for example. Its a natural progression that things gravitate towards the larger places.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Martyn Sadler said:

I haven't heard the podcast, so I'm reluctant to comment in any detail on what Michael said.

But the expression "utopian dream" doesn't really do justice to Transatlantic Rugby League.

Given that 10,000 people in Toronto saw the Wolfpack clinch promotion last year, it seems foolish to describe that reality as a utopian dream.

It would have been a few years ago, but not now.

More people watch Toronto do that than have watched Wakefield at any one point in many years. 

[Gooleboy]

Regarding expansion in the North for RL, not an easy thing to achieve. We have even struggled to get it going in South Yorkshire. I used to work with a lad who was a fanatical season ticket holder at Middlesbrough FC. I asked him what he thought of Rugby League. He said "If any type of Rugby was on in my back garden, I would draw the curtains"

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Hamilton is 70kms away from toronto, st Helen's is 10m from liverpool. 

10m is nothing, 70kms is a journey.

Relative to the size and usual travelling distances in Canada its a comparison. St Helens town and club suffers from the wool stereotype Liverpudlians dish out and is reflective of the general trend towards bigger in all aspects of society, its not a major discussion point.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Gooleboy said:

Regarding expansion in the North for RL, not an easy thing to achieve. We have even struggled to get it going in South Yorkshire. I used to work with a lad who was a fanatical season ticket holder at Middlesbrough FC. I asked him what he thought of Rugby League. He said "If any type of Rugby was on in my back garden, I would draw the curtains"

Exactly, just because its "the north" doesn't make it automatically suitable for RL.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Regarding expansion in the North for RL, not an easy thing to achieve. We have even struggled to get it going in South Yorkshire. I used to work with a lad who was a fanatical season ticket holder at Middlesbrough FC. I asked him what he thought of Rugby League. He said "If any type of Rugby was on in my back garden, I would draw the curtains"

Maybe people in the North "aren't in to RL"?... 

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Interesting comments in the last 15 minutes or so by Michael Carter on the latest Forty-20 podcast

Says transatlantic expansion is a utopian dream and rugby league should concentrate on exploiting untapped potential in the North. His idea of expanding the game is to make it attractive enough that Everton fans watch Saints at home when the former are playing away. 

Perhaps in the Covid world that is the way forward for rugby league? 

In Hull, many of us used to watch all 3 professional clubs, dependant on who was at home.  As kids, we got in cheap or for nothing, but I know a good few of us carried that on for well into our late teens and adulthood.

If the price is right, whats to say a collective ticket incentive might work.  

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

Why do they need to be alternatives? 

Given that everything transatlantic is funded completely independently, with no financial input from SL, how does it preclude SL from expanding across the North of England (something we have conspicuously failed to do for the last 100 years, by the way). 

More small time thinking from Michael Carter

Money is preventing it, or lack of. 

[Eddie]

32 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm not sure that's right. People dont only.support the team from the town they are from 

RL needs to expand its base and catchment areas goodison park is as close to saints as headingley is to Oulton. Its absolutely possible to attract fans from 20mins away. 

I have no idea what that has to do with Toronto and NA though

Not this again  

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

Why do they need to be alternatives? 

Given that everything transatlantic is funded completely independently, with no financial input from SL, how does it preclude SL from expanding across the North of England (something we have conspicuously failed to do for the last 100 years, by the way). 

More small time thinking from Michael Carter

100%

[Lowdesert]

13 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Regarding expansion in the North for RL, not an easy thing to achieve. We have even struggled to get it going in South Yorkshire. I used to work with a lad who was a fanatical season ticket holder at Middlesbrough FC. I asked him what he thought of Rugby League. He said "If any type of Rugby was on in my back garden, I would draw the curtains"

Yet a big team of lads (70+) from Stockton and Middlesboro I was working with in Birmingham said they were looking forward to watching the game at the World Cup.

I think Boro, Stockton, Darlington might be the next places to dabble in the amateur game anyway, with Newcastle doing so well.

[Hela Wigmen]

52 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Why? It’s just down the road.

There’s very little interest in Rugby League in Liverpool, for a City as close to St Helens, Wigan, Warrington etc, there just isn’t that interest there. There’s also a bit of “snobbery”, yeah, I can’t believe it either, from people from Liverpool about St Helens and the other towns immediately outside of Liverpool. Saints have/had community coaches in Liverpool and there’s never been an uptake in attending games that could be attributed to this.

I’d be interested to know more of Carter’s antiquated views and what northern places he thinks we should be looking at as expansion places. 

[Adelaide Tiger]

29 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Hamilton is 70kms away from toronto, st Helen's is 10m from liverpool. 

10m is nothing, 70kms is a journey.

70 kms a journey for some in Australia that’s how far their letter box is from the house!!

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

The game isnt going to survive if it excludes people from further than 15minutes away. 

As I said the distance from goodison to saints is the same as headingley to Oulton 

Yes, and oulton is a part of Leeds that identifies as Leeds, is part of the Leeds commuting and economic area and culturally has affinities with Leeds though naturally due to its proximity to Cas and Wakey has fans of those two too. Goodison is not in St Helens, has no affinity to St Helens. If Saints wanted to start targeting they'd have to go play some games there.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Adelaide Tiger said:

70 kms a journey for some in Australia that’s how far their letter box is from the house!!

Exactly!

[Eddie]

10 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

There’s very little interest in Rugby League in Liverpool, for a City as close to St Helens, Wigan, Warrington etc, there just isn’t that interest there. There’s also a bit of “snobbery”, yeah, I can’t believe it either, from people from Liverpool about St Helens and the other towns immediately outside of Liverpool. Saints have/had community coaches in Liverpool and there’s never been an uptake in attending games that could be attributed to this.

I’d be interested to know more of Carter’s antiquated views and what northern places he thinks we should be looking at as expansion places. 

The ‘Wool’ snobbery is of course pathetic, but Scousers in general have such a high opinion of Scousers/Liverpool and a sense that they are special and above people from other places, so it will never go away.