Canadian Tryouts

[ATLANTISMAN]

19 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think this is fair comment. Whether Canadian tryouts turn out to be all hot air depends on whether Perez is being honest when he says that - unlike the Wolfpack - it's OK if Ottawa stays in L1 for a while. Personally I just don't believe that. In which case you need seasoned professionals from Eng/Aus/NZ. 

That said I'm not sure L1 will even exist in a couple of years - certainly in its current form - so it could be academic. 

Quote Unlike the Wolfpack its OK if Ottawa stay in League 1 for a while:( 

Playing out of a 23000 capacity stadium which attracts a full house for CFL matches against teams that play in front of as little as 300 I am certain the public won't put up with that for long.

Or maybe I am just plain daft and don't see it:)

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Linebackers, defensive linemen and defensive backs would be better bets.  They already have the skills and mental agility to play defense, they just need to improve their fitness and make some adjustments in their play and they'll be able to handle playing defense.  Teaching them the offensive side of the game will also be easier than teaching offensive players how to play defense from scratch.

Please tell me, what is the difference now to when all those NA expantionists on this site were reaching for the box of Kleenex at the mention and video's that were being posted of the trials (I prefer to call it auditions) that Toronto were making.

Is it that two very expierenced coaches one being a numerous SL winner and Great Britain International Coach and all their accompanying back room staff of trainers, skils coaches, conditioners etc could not recognise the hidden talent audutioning or indeed tutor them in the rudiments of the game, you are in the wrong job BP, go and show em what you can do you have a level playing field Toronto were at the same position in the same League, both clubs not yet having played a game.

[Lowdesert]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

How much are Canadians earning playing union in Europe though? Other than for the top players union salaries aren’t big. 

They’re on good money in France.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

As ever with Perez, talk is cheap. If the Aces actually do sign 10 Canadians on full-time contracts, however, I’ll be the first to congratulate them.

He may have backed himself into a corner, but he did that before, wonder where is next gig will be?

[Man of Kent]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

He may have backed himself into a corner, but he did that before, wonder where is next gig will be?

There may be practical issues that preclude 10 Canadians signing like visas.

I think the RFL has changed the quota rules to allow unlimited Canadians but will the Home Office allow them to work & live here? 

[Lowdesert]

26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Please tell me, what is the difference now to when all those NA expantionists on this site were reaching for the box of Kleenex at the mention and video's that were being posted of the trials (I prefer to call it auditions) that Toronto were making.

Is it that two very expierenced coaches one being a numerous SL winner and Great Britain International Coach and all their accompanying back room staff of trainers, skils coaches, conditioners etc could not recognise the hidden talent audutioning or indeed tutor them in the rudiments of the game, you are in the wrong job BP, go and show em what you can do you have a level playing field Toronto were at the same position in the same League, both clubs not yet having played a game.

To be fair Harry, they didn’t have a big back room staff at all, but none the less, IMO, got carried away with promotion and the second promotion, forgetting this was supposed to be a 5 year plan.  Again, imo, but they could’ve won League 1 with 2 or 3 local players in the side.

This ‘success’ in turn put pressure on to compete at SL level when it was clear to a big percentage of fans, punters etc etc they would struggle due to their squad depth.

If I was constructing a building, to be complete in 5 years and went hell for leather to compete it in 3, I’d fail, cause a lot of unnecessary injuries, build to poor quality and lose my job, guaranteed.  Bobby hasn’t worked in industry under those pressures.  He will not have the experience or skills to deliver such a project or manage it.

If the Plan was promotion to SL within 5 years, then that was a weak plan.  The cost of dropping back down again might have been too much.  If the Plan was to build, generate a strong talent pool then 5 years was wishful thinking.  

I hope Ottawa can learn from that and any recruitment drives they announce, rightly, need bigging  up.  Get kids playing, get groups like Tag, Women/girls playing, engage with the schools while earmarking better player types they need at various times and stages.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

There may be practical issues that preclude 10 Canadians signing like visas.

I think the RFL has changed the quota rules to allow unlimited Canadians but will the Home Office allow them to work & live here? 

I think the aim is that they are Canada-based and fly in and out of the UK like Catalans. But that means it won't be UK immigration that is the problem, but Canadian. Will the remaining 15 or so UK players get visas to live and work in Canada, which is as tough as UK for full work permits? Depends if 'rugby league player' earns you enough visa points. I suppose it might, given that without some 'skilled workers' (ie UK players) the team's not viable.     

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think the aim is that they are Canada-based and fly in and out of the UK like Catalans.

Not sure that’s the case, Toby.

I’m sure Perez said they’ll train in the UK. Ottawa gets mighty cold in winter, I can tell you.

[The Great Dane]

3 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I see your point but i think you might be incorrect.  Sure the base core will be from places where RL is currently played but there will be some who try out who, with proper coaching, will be able to jump to the League 1 standard fairly quickly.

Ottawa is a strong Rugby Union town and I have no doubt there are players 'in the rough' there....your other points are valid (publicity etc)  but to get lower clubs going a few Canadians or 'local lads' on the side will help develop that.  There is a strong possibility that if successful the Union sides will also run a few League sides....they could then compete with the few clubs from Toronto and an Ontario League with a good standard should develop if all goes to plan.  Promotion and interest are the keys...it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

With all due respect, if there were a bunch of RU players potentially good enough to be pro RL players running around playing park footy in Canada, then Canada would have one of the best, if not the best, RU sides in the world, and that simply isn't even close to being the case.

If it was possible for Ottawa to set some sort of reasonable feeder system up, then it might make sense to have guys on pro contracts developing in lower grades, but there're aren't any lower grades of any standard in Canada, and I haven't heard anything about them partnering with other clubs to develop players.

So any player that they sign will have to be on their squad, and any guy you have on your squad that isn't up to scratch is a liability. Maybe you get away with it for a while, but eventually it'll bite you in the ######.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

He may have backed himself into a corner, but he did that before, wonder where is next gig will be?

In Ottawa Harry!  Perez will make a good go of it and I predict a WINNER!  Its very important that they get out of League 1 in the first year though (that is my qualifier on my prediction).  Its good that he is having tryouts and having a few local son the side is good (the 10 number means nothing) but it certainly shows the intent and effort  is there.

Be positive Harry...Sunny Days just around the corner!

Hope you are well.

[Harry Stottle]

37 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think the aim is that they are Canada-based and fly in and out of the UK like Catalans. But that means it won't be UK immigration that is the problem, but Canadian. Will the remaining 15 or so UK players get visas to live and work in Canada, which is as tough as UK for full work permits? Depends if 'rugby league player' earns you enough visa points. I suppose it might, given that without some 'skilled workers' (ie UK players) the team's not viable.     

Honest question, are they subjected to same climatic conditions as Toronto?

[Kayakman]

6 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

With all due respect, if there were a bunch of RU players potentially good enough to be pro RL players running around playing park footy in Canada, then Canada would have one of the best, if not the best, RU sides in the world, and that simply isn't even close to being the case.

If it was possible for Ottawa to set some sort of reasonable feeder system up, then it might make sense to have guys on pro contracts developing in lower grades, but there're aren't any lower grades of any standard in Canada, and I haven't heard anything about them partnering with other clubs to develop players.

So any player that they sign will have to be on their squad, and any guy you have on your squad that isn't up to scratch is a liability. Maybe you get away with it for a while, but eventually it'll bite you in the ######.

Ya but we are only talking a sub in  League 1 here Great Dane.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Honest question, are they subjected to same climatic conditions as Toronto?

The climate in Ottawa is harsher but the venue is better.

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, Kayakman said:

The climate in Ottawa is harsher but the venue is better.

Does that mean the venue has a roof which will be operated? Other than that won't they to be subjected to playing a number of games in the UK before playing at home. 

It was just that Toby said the intention was fly in and out of Canada, not only would that be expensive in travel costs, it would also require a number of player's to locate to Canada, so would the club relocate and accommodate them, or pay wages big enough to cover living in Canada, and maybe keeping two properties going if they have a family in the UK?

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Kayakman said:

There is a strong possibility that if successful the Union sides will also run a few League sides...

If the governing Union council would allow any club(s) to assist Rugby League in this manner they must be mellowing, it is not in their nature.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Does that mean the venue has a roof which will be operated? Other than that won't they to be subjected to playing a number of games in the UK before playing at home. 

It was just that Toby said the intention was fly in and out of Canada, not only would that be expensive in travel costs, it would also require a number of player's to locate to Canada, so would the club relocate and accommodate them, or pay wages big enough to cover living in Canada, and maybe keeping two properties going if they have a family in the UK?

Those are good questions and I would say that the reality will be a mix of all your points...it will have to develop and morph...it will be interesting to watch.   One thing I can tell you Harry is that if they can get out of League 1 in the first year and into Championship it has a very high probability of great success due to the location (Capital) and the people involved.  The first year is critical so they need to announce a very strong squad but no need for the overkill of the Wolfpack...but they do need to spend...and they do need to win.   If it works out they could easily draw 20 000 per game on average.

[The Great Dane]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

The Great Dane seems to be a great dolt when it comes to the issue of developing Canadian players.  

A core of British & Oceania players augmented by local talent seems to be a smart and enlightened way forward to progress on and off the field.

I don't know what the rules are over there, but in Australia you are allowed 30 players in your top squad. They seem to be offering 10 of those spots up in these tryouts, that's one third of their top squad on totally untested prospects.That leaves 20 spots for actual professional RL players, top 17 plus 3 reserves.

Any injuries, in almost any position on the park, and they'll be throwing a developing player that's almost certainly never played more than a few games, and never played anything other than a friendly or a trial , into their top squad in what's meant to be a professional team.

That's not a core of players 'augmented by local "talent"', that's a disaster waiting to happen to a team that can't afford such a disaster.

There's no point talking to you about this subject anyway, you only care about the image and not the substance.

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If the governing Union council would allow any club(s) to assist Rugby League in this manner they must be mellowing, it is not in their nature.

This is Canada Harry.....there is not the old animosity...only old rumours spoken about at beer ups...sort of like the English reflecting on the Vikings.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

This is Canada Harry.....there is not the old animosity...only old rumours spoken about at beer ups...sort of like the English reflecting on the Vikings.

But there is still the same governing body, those who sit above the Canadian Union, it is those people I was referring to not the local council.

[Lowdesert]

5 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

I don't know what the rules are over there, but in Australia you are allowed 30 players in your top squad. They seem to be offering 10 of those spots up in these tryouts, that's one third of their top squad on totally untested prospects.That leaves 20 spots for actual professional RL players, top 17 plus 3 reserves.

Any injuries, in almost any position on the park, and they'll be throwing a developing player that's almost certainly never played more than a few games, and never played anything other than a friendly or a trial , into their top squad in what's meant to be a professional team.

That's not a core of players 'augmented by local "talent"', that's a disaster waiting to happen to a team that can't afford such a disaster.

There's no point talking to you about this subject anyway, you only care about the image and not the substance.

The level of League 1 is not like high, with a split between teams pushing for promotion to Championship level and development teams - some, not much higher, if any, than amateur teams.  They could quite easily harbour novices in the first year in my opinion. ( by novices I mean RU type players getting used to the pace and developing).  

 

[Kayakman]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But there is still the same governing body, those who sit above the Canadian Union, it is those people I was referring to not the local council.

West Coast based and alot of internal struggles right now in Union...the numerous Ottawa clubs are unique (I won't go into the detail of the history) but just lets say they are not afraid to paddle their own canoe.  There is a good pool of rugby talent there also.

[The Great Dane]

16 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Ya but we are only talking a sub in  League 1 here Great Dane.

That's very short sighted Kayakman... Spoken like a true RL fan lol.

It's unlikely that the Aces are going to have a feeder club for these guys to drop into anytime soon, so what happens to them if/when the Aces move up to Championship?

Is the fanbase going to wait around while the team is either stuck in League 1 or is yo-yoing between League 1 and Championship, just hoping that enough of these guys develop into solid players? Seems pretty unlikely right.

Or do the Aces just cut them and replace them with better players from overseas?

If they do just cut them, then firstly, how are the Aces going to look if they cut all/most of their Canadian players after spruiking all the player development they've been doing?

Secondly what was gained by signing them in the first place if there was no real plan to do anything with them past League 1?

[The Great Dane]

20 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

The level of League 1 is not like high, with a split between teams pushing for promotion to Championship level and development teams - some, not much higher, if any, than amateur teams.  They could quite easily harbour novices in the first year in my opinion. ( by novices I mean RU type players getting used to the pace and developing).  

 

Like I said to Kayakman, if there's no plan for them past League 1 then why bother at all?

That's just a waste of every bodies time and money, and unless you get extremely lucky, you won't actually develop anything!

Personally I don't go for smoke and mirrors BS just because it's easy, but I guess if all you are into is optics then go for it.

[mrfranco]

8 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

That's very short sighted Kayakman... Spoken like a true RL fan lol.

It's unlikely that the Aces are going to have a feeder club for these guys to drop into anytime soon, so what happens to them if/when the Aces move up to Championship?

Is the fanbase going to wait around while the team is either stuck in League 1 or is yo-yoing between League 1 and Championship, just hoping that enough of these guys develop into solid players? Seems pretty unlikely right.

Or do the Aces just cut them and replace them with better players from overseas?

If they do just cut them, then firstly, how are the Aces going to look if they cut all/most of their Canadian players after spruiking all the player development they've been doing?

Secondly what was gained by signing them in the first place if there was no real plan to do anything with them past League 1?

You raise some interesting questions there:

What counts as a success? If they have 10 CAN players in year one, is it a success if there are 2 or 3 still in or around the team after second season in (hopefully) the Championship? 
If a few of the other 7 or 8 are then playing with other L1 clubs is that a success? (difficult with the visas situation unless they also have British heritage, like Quinn Ngwarti and the fact that the exception for N. American players only applies to the N. American clubs, so those players count as overseas at other clubs). If this did happen, it is a gain for the game, the opening of a new player pool, or the beginnings of doing so.

 

 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Please tell me, what is the difference now to when all those NA expantionists on this site were reaching for the box of Kleenex at the mention and video's that were being posted of the trials (I prefer to call it auditions) that Toronto were making.

Is it that two very expierenced coaches one being a numerous SL winner and Great Britain International Coach and all their accompanying back room staff of trainers, skils coaches, conditioners etc could not recognise the hidden talent audutioning or indeed tutor them in the rudiments of the game, you are in the wrong job BP, go and show em what you can do you have a level playing field Toronto were at the same position in the same League, both clubs not yet having played a game.

Likely very little is different now from when the Wolfpack were starting up, so whether Ottawa can find and attract many good prospects this time around remains to be seen.  We'll have to see how the response to their tryout ads is won't we.  I stand by my statement/prediction that among gridiron players the better prospects defensive players will be better prospects than offensive players because they'd have less to learn.