Canadian Tryouts

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, burnleywelsh said:

Lance Cone ?

SIR LANCELOT

 

 

[The Great Dane]

2 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

I don’t know what’s brought the attitude on about my comment and the comment regarding BS is childish.

Jesus you're sensitive aren't you...

The 'comment regarding BS' was a more than fair assessment of the idea that you are supporting. Let me break it down in detail for you so you can actually address the point instead of running off on tangents.

The idea of signing a bunch of Canadian athletes with no experience and no plan or feasible way to actually even attempt to develop them into experienced players, just so you can say 'hey look we have Canadian players', and then calling it player development is a literal case of playing smoke and mirrors.

In an attempt to make your team look more genuine to people with a certain way of thinking, you are literally trying to fool people into thinking that you are developing Canadian players of a high standard without actually having developed any players of a high standard.

And frankly the only thing that is childish is your faux moral outrage.

2 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

People are allowed to disagree with your comments GD.  Might be hard for you to take but it’s a forum. 

History tells us that trialists (Hull FC have had one through the off season and early part of SL) used to be part of the game over here.  The games they played in were selected but none the less, they got a go.  I don’t see Ottawa trying several in a league of two lower a problem.

There's nothing wrong with people disagreeing, however not all opinions are equal, and just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that it has to be respected.

No opinion is above reproach.

BTW, there's Nothing wrong with trialists, never said there was, however you aren't comparing like for like and I think you know it.

[The Great Dane]

40 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

I also still insist that the raw talent is there, however the coaching is not. Ottawa needs to be very careful about its coaching hires, they really need someone who has strengths in developing players otherwise there’s no point recruiting Canadians. Would an Aussie be a better hire?

Of the ones that are available Geoff Toovey, David Furner, John Cartwright, maybe even the Walker brothers, but realistically without the infrastructure to develop players they're all going to struggle with guys that just aren't ready yet to play in the top team yet.

If they have the money the Aces would be better off hiring a good development officer to help start the work of building juniors pathways. Get them started on building the a local league up to a standard where they can use it to develop players outside of the Aces top team.

[ATLANTISMAN]

46 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Of the ones that are available Geoff Toovey, David Furner, John Cartwright, maybe even the Walker brothers, but realistically without the infrastructure to develop players they're all going to struggle with guys that just aren't ready yet to play in the top team yet.

If they have the money the Aces would be better off hiring a good development officer to help start the work of building juniors pathways. Get them started on building the a local league up to a standard where they can use it to develop players outside of the Aces top team.

Mick Potter and would give any locals a fair crack of the whip he was brilliant at the Dragons and also top bloke:)

 

Paul

[Pulga]

I think if they're going to be giving Canadians 10 spots on the roster they need at least two seasons in L1. Otherwise it will be a waste. Two years for ten of the highest potential RU players to develop would be perfect.

Then maybe a few could make the jump to Championship. That's as much as you could ask really.

Also, people saying that the CFL would offer more should look up their salaries....

[Marty Funkhouser]

23 minutes ago, Pulga said:

 

Also, people saying that the CFL would offer more should look up their salaries....

30 grand( English) minimum wage in CFL. I would very much doubt there is one player in League 1 earning that.

[Oldbear]

3 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

30 grand( English) minimum wage in CFL. I would very much doubt there is one player in League 1 earning that.

And if you can complete 5 years in the CFL there’s a nice pension scheme which will deliver a good benefit at retirement. 
 

I don’t think CFL or USports football players is the way to go, although many will have played RU in High School that for some will be a few years ago, during which time they will have been conditioned to play a totally different sport, and have probably suffered a number of injuries, gridiron is high speed collision and despite the padding (or maybe because of it) there are some pretty nasty injuries,  Ottawa needs to be careful that they don’t end up attracting a load of banged up football players, unable to make the CFL, looking for one last payday.

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Kayakman said:

If Ottawa is successful then the development will happen...sure there will be some speed bumps but we will not be deterred....we will get there.   You gotta believe.

I'm not believing owt Perez says, he told us there were thousands of ready made athlete's over there ready for SL, the man is a good talker but a charlatan, mark my words, he will fall again and then like tbe pheonix rise and convince someone else with his fantasies.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Super league would have loved the crowds NFL europe got. 

The operative word there is got, it came it went, RL is still here, next crumb of wisdom please!

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Of the ones that are available Geoff Toovey, David Furner, John Cartwright, maybe even the Walker brothers, but realistically without the infrastructure to develop players they're all going to struggle with guys that just aren't ready yet to play in the top team yet.

If they have the money the Aces would be better off hiring a good development officer to help start the work of building juniors pathways. Get them started on building the a local league up to a standard where they can use it to develop players outside of the Aces top team.

I gave you a like GD because that is the correct way to go.

But if you have been reading these pages for a long time you will have seen that our Canadian friends are very proud of the fact that in the multiple professional sports they partake in and  ecause Canada is a forward looking wealthy cosmopolitan country they are quite open to acquiring their sportspeople other than going to all the trouble of nurturing and developing their own, they have no need to produce their own let some other countries do all the spade work and just buy them in, "we have enough money"

So I wouldn't hold your breath, are Toronto not a good example of this when you observe their development strategy?

 

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Its still there. It has just taken a different form. They still play NFL all over europe. In more countries than they play RL i would bet. 

And..........

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, Oldbear said:

despite the padding (or maybe because of it)

I have always though that the 'protection' they wore, was against the other man's protection, the game would be a lot safer if they didn't wear protection it gives them a false sense of security.

[Davo5]

Wow 4 yrs of vitriol aimed at the lack of Canadian players in Toronto's squad and now we have the same Luddites having a pop at another Canadian team planning to include those homegrown players in their squad,is it any wonder we are seen as a small,quaint northern sport by the majority of the country.

[Lowdesert]

15 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Jesus you're sensitive aren't you...

The 'comment regarding BS' was a more than fair assessment of the idea that you are supporting. Let me break it down in detail for you so you can actually address the point instead of running off on tangents.

The idea of signing a bunch of Canadian athletes with no experience and no plan or feasible way to actually even attempt to develop them into experienced players, just so you can say 'hey look we have Canadian players', and then calling it player development is a literal case of playing smoke and mirrors.

In an attempt to make your team look more genuine to people with a certain way of thinking, you are literally trying to fool people into thinking that you are developing Canadian players of a high standard without actually having developed any players of a high standard.

And frankly the only thing that is childish is your faux moral outrage.

There's nothing wrong with people disagreeing, however not all opinions are equal, and just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that it has to be respected.

No opinion is above reproach.

BTW, there's Nothing wrong with trialists, never said there was, however you aren't comparing like for like and I think you know it.

There are no tangents being used at all.  Ottawa are keen to recruit 'elite' level sportsmen - that could mean RU/Football or whatever.  History tells us many very good players have been found this way and, imo, it is afar better  intention than just buying a team, which to some extent, they will have to do.

If this does not come off, or is only a half hearted effort to show they have gone through the process, but it didn't work, then I would criticise.  But they havent even started yet and your assumptions already condemn them, which is silly.  If they don't deliver or go the route of TWP then it might be a credible argument and they will get rightly criticised..

  

 

 

[Toby Chopra]

10 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

There are no tangents being used at all.  Ottawa are keen to recruit 'elite' level sportsmen - that could mean RU/Football or whatever.  History tells us many very good players have been found this way and, imo, it is afar better  intention than just buying a team, which to some extent, they will have to do. 

Is this correct?

By my reckoning only a tiny fraction of league players over the years have come from outside the sport, and the most productive period for this was that short spell where RL offered a full time wage and union didn't. Those conditions no longer exist, indeed have been tuned against us. 

I'm not saying it's impossible to switch the odd player from another sport, but Ottawa are claiming they can do something on a scale that has never been seen in RL, even in that most opportune period. 

I remain sceptical, and that is as someone who has no problem with the Wolfpack model at all. 

[Harry Stottle]

45 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Wow 4 yrs of vitriol aimed at the lack of Canadian players in Toronto's squad and now we have the same Luddites having a pop at another Canadian team planning to include those homegrown players in their squad,is it any wonder we are seen as a small,quaint northern sport by the majority of the country.

Good morning David, are you suggesting I am a luddite?

All I am saying is we have heard it all before, funnily enough from the very same gentleman, lets wait and see if is intentions transpire firstly, but firstly a couple of things, one I hate being lied too, I am always cautious of the person until he/she redeems themselves, secondly Toronto came into existance approx 4 years ago actually about this time in '16 I wouldn't have expected them to have many if any Canadians in their team, but I would have expected that they would have got involved in trying to establish something - even just an intention - wirh regards an infrastructure of grass roots RL.

And lastly, Luddites destroyed things that are already in place, can't see anything yet to wield my hammer at.

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

If they don't deliver or go the route of TWP then it might be a credible argument and they will get rightly criticised

Careful LD, that sounds like a criticism of Toronto, you Luddite you

[Lowdesert]

12 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Is this correct?

By my reckoning only a tiny fraction of league players over the years have come from outside then sport, and the most productive period for this was that short spell where RL offered a full time wage and union didn't. Those conditions no longer exist, indeed have been tuned against us. 

I'm not saying it's impossible to switch the odd player from another sport, but Ottawa claiming they can do something on a scale that has never been seen in RL, even in that most opportune period. 

I remain sceptical, and that is as someone who has no problem with the Wolfpack model at all. 

Hull FC used to recruit from local RU clubs - Brian Hancock, Ibbertson, Firth, Marlowe, Norfolk, Buttner etc etc.  Some mad it some didnt quite crack it.  Last year they did the same with Ratu Naulogo, this year the same with Eldon Myers (who didnt quite make it).  

Naulago was one of the finds of the season.

I'll just edit this Toby and say that if Naulogo had gone into a League 1 club, quite possible he could have shoved 60 or 70 tries away in a season.

[Lowdesert]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Careful LD, that sounds like a criticism of Toronto, you Luddite you

Certainly after a beer.

Going to be interesting to see how these go.

[Marty Funkhouser]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Its still there. It has just taken a different form. They still play NFL all over europe. In more countries than they play RL i would bet. 

The Germans are the main drivers of the little organised NFL in Europe. The German league has been going 40 years or so. It owes nothing at all to "NFL Europe" but came about because of the interest generated from the various and many US army bases there. Originally the German organised teams to play the army teams (or vice versa). It spread a little to Austria etc and is played as an amateur/park sport in UK as well as some University teams. Enjoyable and fun but standard not brilliant, true story I once played a game around the time of Hanley at the Monarchs, local amateur type team. I was scrum half in league so got thrown in quarterback, scored 5 touchdowns just playing a league type game , dummying etc . Saw a game in Hull not so long back and the standard doesn't appear to have improved much, would back pretty much any amateur RL team to win at either game but not really sure if they play NFL properly competitively in UK. Germany will be totally different.

[fighting irish]

On 01/05/2020 at 10:08, The Great Dane said:

The contracts they'll be offering won't be worth enough to attract the really strong talent, so the chances of them finding players that really kick on to become a strong players (i.e. SL or even better NRL standard) are slim at best.

So aside from maybe some minor promotional value, the only reason that they are holding these tryouts is so they can appease a few morons who say they aren't fair dinkum unless they have local players.

So in pursuit of gaining some credibility with people that A. aren't their audience (don't even live in Canada) and B. will never spend a dime on the club, they're going spend a bunch of money signing a bunch of untested guys, most of whom probably didn't even know there were two forms of rugby, let alone have ever played the game, when they could have spent the same amount signing a few solid players from Aus, NZ, Eng, etc.

So yeah maybe they get lucky and find a diamond in the rough, but I ask you, rather than trying to get a bunch of Canadians into the team as quickly as possible, even if they aren't ready and it's only going to weaken the team, wouldn't it have been better in the long run for the club and the sport in Canada if they had fielded the strongest team possible and made a name for themselves?

Rushing Canadian players into the team makes them look good to certain people in the short term, but it's much better for them in the long term if they are as successful as possible and thus draw as many people's attention to themselves and the sport by getting their name in media as much as possible, that will lead to stronger support for the sport, which will lead to more people wanting to give the sport a go, which will lead to a grassroots sprouting out, and eventually actual juniors.

Ah! so you mean the ''top-down'' method?

[arcticchris]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have always though that the 'protection' they wore, was against the other man's protection, the game would be a lot safer if they didn't wear protection it gives them a false sense of security.

I have got a lot more into the NFL in the last couple of years and can appreciate the skill sets of a lot of the players though my biggest bugbear other than the length of games and commercial breaks is that players basically only play one side of the ball, attack or defence.

 

I agree with you that the padding and helmets provide a false sense of safety that leads to terrible technique and reckless play in contact.

 

A team going full on to rugby style tackling would have great success in most situations as what they would lose by conceding the occasional extra couple of yards bringing the man to ground would be more than compensated for by a far higher tackle success rate. The open field defence is often very poor even taking into account that blocking is allowed.

[The Great Dane]

5 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

There are no tangents being used at all.  Ottawa are keen to recruit 'elite' level sportsmen - that could mean RU/Football or whatever.  History tells us many very good players have been found this way and, imo, it is afar better  intention than just buying a team, which to some extent, they will have to do.

If this does not come off, or is only a half hearted effort to show they have gone through the process, but it didn't work, then I would criticise.  But they havent even started yet and your assumptions already condemn them, which is silly.  If they don't deliver or go the route of TWP then it might be a credible argument and they will get rightly criticised..

You're going over ground that has already been covered earlier, but just because you call them 'elite level sportsmen' doesn't mean that they actually are. Any RU player that was actually worth taking a punt on will already be earning more than the Aces can afford to pay them playing RU.

Also we don't have to wait to see if the Aces plan will work, and it isn't silly to assume that it'll largely fail, because many clubs, all of which are much better placed to develop and convert players, have tried this exact plan with actual elite level RU players (right up to Wallabies when the Wallabies weren't ######), and all of them have come to the same conclusion; unless you can get RU players as teenagers it's prohibitively expensive and there's a low success rate in trying to convert them en masse.

[The Great Dane]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I gave you a like GD because that is the correct way to go.

But if you have been reading these pages for a long time you will have seen that our Canadian friends are very proud of the fact that in the multiple professional sports they partake in and  ecause Canada is a forward looking wealthy cosmopolitan country they are quite open to acquiring their sportspeople other than going to all the trouble of nurturing and developing their own, they have no need to produce their own let some other countries do all the spade work and just buy them in, "we have enough money"

So I wouldn't hold your breath, are Toronto not a good example of this when you observe their development strategy?

I don't know what Toronto's 'development strategy' is, or if they even have one at all.

Either way, it's way to early in the process to be able to tell if they are having any success or not.

[The Great Dane]

3 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Ah! so you mean the ''top-down'' method?

Wouldn't both the methods being talked about be top-down methods?

I mean both are a professional club trying to grow the sport from the top of the pyramid.