Smith favours return to Super League licences

[Smudger06]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Castleford's support base isnt limited to the small town they are in. Cas fans would be the first to tell you that. As such your fan per capita is meaningless. 

RL has a big problem in growth because it largely does nothing to expand its support base. It could. Plenty of people travel from further than Cas to go to Elland Road for instance.

There are plenty of people for Cas to target and for them to attract. There are millions who are within an easy drive. Xscape in Castleford gets millions of visitors per year for instance

You don't go to Castleford much. Literally every 3rd person is wearing Cas Merchandise. Castleford Tigers have two Club Shops in Castleford. 

[Trojan]

21 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

 

Three: this sport can no longer sell itself as the greatest game. It has been allowed to become an expensive, homogeneous, high-speed battering activity of limited appeal in a world full of alternative entertainments. All that stands out, to a new spectator, is the endless intensity of collisions. Note the BBC and Sky adverts and introductions to the game. It is not enough.

 

 

I really agree with this.  There is not enough through the hand rugby and too much five drives and a kick.  One way to return to more attacking game IMO would be to reduce the PTB gap to 5 metres again.  Also to restrict the number  of replacements.   Give the backs a chance to show their skills.

Eliminating scrums by taking a tap and withdrawing 12 men from the attack/defence until the ball has been passed, might open up the game, the lack of tries from scrums these days is because the outcome is predictable and defences line up accordingly.

[Smudger06]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

That's a lovely story smudge but I'm not sure what relevance it holds to what I said.

Well you said that the fan per capita is meaningless. That story suggests it isn't. 

[Smudger06]

Licensing should not include Castleford. Its a town of 40k surrounded by other RL Clubs and plays in a ramshackle stadium. 

Castleford is a true stronghold of the sport. And we hate Cas. You can't ditch them. 

So, licensing is an impossible system. 

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Its absolutely meaningless. In fact the only point of it would be to put a limit on Cas' potential

Castleford has zero potential in your world. The stadium is unattractive and run down. The town is 40k, working class with a substantial underclass below the working class, a small middle class and an almost non existent upper class, it can't widen it's local market because Leeds is to the North, Wakefield to its West and Featherstone to its South. 

[Smudger06]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'm saying the exact opposite.

Its stadium is under its control, the town is in a massive population centre. 

Cas are at the big boys table and we can demand big boy actions from them

There's nothing Super about a Licenced, no P&R Super League with Cas and Wakefield holding a Licence. At the moment it is a SL because the Clubs have a status of Super by sheer merit of staying in it. 

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Yeah I think you need to be better than just being better than the worst to be super

Been better than the worst Super status club is better than been better than no one and just floating about in mid or lower table season after season with four or five other Clubs in a similar position collecting cash to make up the numbers. 

[paulwalker71]

33 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The alternative is that Cas are in a population centre of about 3m and can attract people from elsewhere.

Most of those people already look to Leeds, Wakefield and Featherstone.

The vast bulk of those 3m are travelling west into Leeds or south into other rival areas of Wakefield MDC. How many live to the East or North of Castleford?

You talk as if there are 3m people who could somehow gravitate towards Castleford, when the reality (as I'm sure you know) is that it is simply not the case.

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Most of them have no interest at all, and I have agreed the saturation of clubs is an issue but there is still plenty to go at.

The alternative is a lot less palatable. That Cas cant grow and as such the game should leave them behind

Well, if you want a SL of the type you suggest, you are going to have to leave them behind. Far behind. And Wakefield, and Featherstone, and Leigh, and Widnes. Probably drop HKR as well. 

[sheddingswasus]

On 04/05/2020 at 11:20, scotchy1 said:

The thing is, for SL to grow we need more players, for us to create more players we need to clubs to prioritise long term development, for teams to focus on long term development we need to encourage them to make long term decisions, to encourage them to make long term decisions we need to remove short term threats.

The game right now has an opportunity to refocus and it should have one focus grow super league. Grow it in visibility, in attendances/viewership, grow it in stature and grow it in the number of clubs, we should be ambitious and there is nothing wrong with us having lots of clubs. Its a good thing.

Aim to grow by 2 every three years and get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Scotchy, your focus is wrong here and this is why as a sport we are struggling.

The strength of any body is it's core. Rugby League now has a very weak core.

There has been far too great an emphasis on Super League to the detriment of the game as a whole.  I realise SL is the showcase for the sport and has it's place rightly at the top of the table. But.......

I am not talking about just the semi pro section, I aim looking right back to where it begins. The youth game. Enhance and strengthen this, create a pathway to senior RL at community level, which in turn produces more players to strengthen the pro-level of the sport.

The game needs rewards at all levels of the game, so things like town team rugby at all age levels (including open age). County games need to be meaningful. International games at open age and youth level. 

All this has been lost with the myopia of Super League being an international completion. Don't get me wrong, I believe this has it's place, but we have lost sight of where we are and who we are.

The Government in it's loan to the RFL recognises the importance of the game to the commumities.

Why is it so important to ignore the heartlands, places like Dewsbury, Halifax, Oldham, and the likes, yet fawn over places like Coventry (no disrespect meant here, just an example). The ones I mentioned produce many players for the pro game, yet Coventry etc. don't. Surely by protecting and promoting these heartlands communities it will strengthen the game.

Once you re-establish the strength in it's origins, then you can strengthen the expansion areas.

Strengthen the core - strengthen the game!

 

[sheddingswasus]

Because the focus has been wrong. 

 

[sheddingswasus]

What I am saying, is we have have a pyramid that starts at the younger level that is extremely strong. The pinnacle of this is rightly the international game. Then super League and all the level below.

If we increase the strength at every level, progressively the next level up, becomes stronger. We then strengthen the game right through to the top.

But we need a strong heartlands, which have been somewhat ignored in the clamour to expand.

As an example, clubs around the country are reaping the benefits of player developed in the Oldham Community game (and other heartland areas) - just thing how many more could?

 

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I can see why the fans of some lower league clubs may feel as though they’re left out if a licensing system returns at Super League level but shouldn’t every club at all three levels of our professional game be subject to some form of licensing criteria? 

 

Simply put for me Hela, NO

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

We have done that every ten years or so for over a century and got nowhere.

Also strong community clubs should focus on being strong community clubs, not struggling SL clubs. 

I havent argued those clubs should be ignored, just that they shouldn't be promoted through P+R

Now that is your pinnacle of tripe, and who is the we you state?

But for a group of people in Lancashire an Yorkshire in tge early 70's who got together to form BARLA we would probably have no game at all now or a very pale version of what we have presently, the Community game was all but dying, you know those places were are next professionals come from. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

According to your fellow heartland fans none. They will tell you that growth in the heartlands is complete and cant grow any more.

You again are making things up as you go along, show me examples of that.

[Hela Wigmen]

46 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Simply put for me Hela, NO

Why not? There are minimum standards within the game anyway, I imagine regarding grounds, for example, why aren’t we going further and making sure that all clubs remain viable. It’s almost annually a side or two outside Super League goes “bust” and starts up again, is doing the same thing over and over the right way to make a positive change?

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, sheddingswasus said:

What I am saying, is we have have a pyramid that starts at the younger level that is extremely strong. The pinnacle of this is rightly the international game. Then super League and all the level below.

If we increase the strength at every level, progressively the next level up, becomes stronger. We then strengthen the game right through to the top.

But we need a strong heartlands, which have been somewhat ignored in the clamour to expand.

As an example, clubs around the country are reaping the benefits of player developed in the Oldham Community game (and other heartland areas) - just thing how many more could?

 

I don't disagree with the invest in youth policy. Our junior rugby desperately needs improvements in various levels and ways, though it has many fundamentally strong bases to build on. 

However talk that the heartlands have been ignored at the expense of "expansion areas" is nonsense and isn't backed up by reality. The heartlands receive the vast majority of investment. To put it in perspective, between the English "expansion clubs" (I put them in inverted commas as some of them are well over 25 years old) London Broncos, London Skolars, Coventry, Newcastle, dare I suggest you'd regard Sheffield in that category too? they receive less money combined than a single SL club centrally. Even including the 2 Welsh sides doesn't come close. This is despite 2 of those areas (4 in the past with midlands and crusaders) supporting academies.

Of the 12 top flight clubs in this country, 10 are British heartland based. Of the 24 first and second division clubs, 20 are British heartland based. Increase that to include league 1 and you find yet again over half the league being British heartland based.

Other than the 2 and a bit million a year invested into Catalans and Toulouse (which is substantial on its own but in the overall picture doesn't particularly stand out), I really don't see how it can be argued that the heartlands are ignored. Mismanaged and underdeveloped maybe, but not ignored.

There's another debate as to whether being so heartland centric is sensible if it makes you uniquely vulnerable. 

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

Most of those people already look to Leeds, Wakefield and Featherstone.

The vast bulk of those 3m are travelling west into Leeds or south into other rival areas of Wakefield MDC. How many live to the East or North of Castleford?

You talk as if there are 3m people who could somehow gravitate towards Castleford, when the reality (as I'm sure you know) is that it is simply not the case.

If you're Cas then embark on an aggressive expansion policy from Wakefield to Goole to bring in fans. The point should be come and watch by far the best side in the area. The policy that was decried falsely as "fan stealing" by Bradford is the model. The aim should be for a young kid growing up in the WF postcode and beyond, especially if their parents aren't tied to a particular club or even if they are, to aspire to want to play for Cas. 

It happens in RL and every other major club sport all the time. Which is why you get loads of Leeds Rhinos fans living in Wakefield for example.

[Tommygilf]

45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Now that is your pinnacle of tripe, and who is the we you state?

But for a group of people in Lancashire an Yorkshire in tge early 70's who got together to form BARLA we would probably have no game at all now or a very pale version of what we have presently, the Community game was all but dying, you know those places were are next professionals come from. 

There's a difference between bad management of the heartlands and ignoring them though Harry.

[GUBRATS]

28 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Why not? There are minimum standards within the game anyway, I imagine regarding grounds, for example, why aren’t we going further and making sure that all clubs remain viable. It’s almost annually a side or two outside Super League goes “bust” and starts up again, is doing the same thing over and over the right way to make a positive change?

When did a non SL club last go ' bust ' ? 

[Hela Wigmen]

45 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

When did a non SL club last go ' bust ' ? 

Widnes last year and then Bradford in 2017. 

We’ve since seen financial troubles for...*deep breath*...Leigh, Rochdale, Barrow, Keighley, Whitehaven and West Wales, from a quick Google search, since that time. 

[Lowdesert]

22 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It's not nonsense at all.  The game's top pro clubs being in smallish economically disadvantaged northern towns is precisely why there's so little money in the game, as former St Helens Chief Executive Sean McGuire explained in his two interviews with Tony Collins.

Leeds and Manchester are quite affluent cities.  Most clubs are close to either.  Certainly more affluent than Birmingham, so that leaves London.

i would love the game to develop and spread in London.

 

[Lowdesert]

22 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Widnes last year and then Bradford in 2017. 

We’ve since seen financial troubles for...*deep breath*...Leigh, Rochdale, Barrow, Keighley, Whitehaven and West Wales, from a quick Google search, since that time. 

Doesn’t make good reading does it.  

[Lowdesert]

21 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

There are about 3m people within about 30mins drive of castleford 

If your referring to Xscape, that’s only on a Saturday.

[GUBRATS]

46 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Widnes last year and then Bradford in 2017. 

We’ve since seen financial troubles for...*deep breath*...Leigh, Rochdale, Barrow, Keighley, Whitehaven and West Wales, from a quick Google search, since that time. 

Widnes had issues in SL and indeed Bradford have been a basket case due to Odsal for years , ' financial troubles '  isn't going bust