Players union demands a slice of the pie following government loan

[dboy]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

In fact Gary Hetherington has said similar, that a lot of clubs have wasted a lot of money and not diversified or increased their revenue streams.

That's simply a lie!

Hetherington said. “...clubs like ours who have got big, diverse businesses and a lot of employees, normally that would give you an advantage in sporting terms.

“But in the situation we are in now, we – in many ways – have got the biggest problem. Our problems probably contrast quite sharply to some other rugby league clubs and sport businesses.

[dboy]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Having seen how Salford have just thrown Niall Evalds under the bus if you think players shouldn't be fighting for everything they can get you need to give your head a shake

 

You're the one who has been calling for players to exercise their rights to get the most cash they can out of a short career.

 

[GUBRATS]

28 minutes ago, dboy said:

That's simply a lie!

Hetherington said. “...clubs like ours who have got big, diverse businesses and a lot of employees, normally that would give you an advantage in sporting terms.

“But in the situation we are in now, we – in many ways – have got the biggest problem. Our problems probably contrast quite sharply to some other rugby league clubs and sport businesses.

While what Mr Hetherington said is true , yes currently it works against them , I'd be more inclined to listen to him if he'd managed to build up the diverse income at a less fashionable smaller club without a very rich benefactor ? , Maybe like Sheffield or somewhere like that ?

[dboy]

22 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

While what Mr Hetherington said is true , yes currently it works against them , I'd be more inclined to listen to him if he'd managed to build up the diverse income at a less fashionable smaller club without a very rich benefactor ? , Maybe like Sheffield or somewhere like that ?

The way Leeds have built is, with doubt, to be admired.

You still have to consider the impact of the business closure - they have lost more income than any other club.

 

[Marty Funkhouser]

39 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The game is in a far better state than it was in 95 Marty. 

It has a far more solid base and has gone from a game which was in tonnes of debt and selling assets to survive to one which has built many. 

But there is also the fact that the product sky pays for costs money to produce. It's all very well saying that the game has half a billion over the last 25 years but it has to pay most of that out to players to make it worth what sky are paying for it.

Thats obviously not to defend every club

"Built many assets"...? 

We now have nearly two thirds of the Elite division playing in non-owned "assets". St Helens  have swapped one reasonably valuable plot of land for a ground in area with co- tenants that ensures they will never be able to cash in as per Knowsley Road again. They and others will also be testing the reliability and longevity of flat pack stadiums before long. Leeds have ceded ownership of half of their ground and are now in the position of being a sub tenant. Not to mention the loss of grounds throughout the lower divisions , the whole Odsal debacle and the continuing decline of Belle Vue and Wheldon Road.

On the credit side Warrington have undoubtedly improved their lot and are probably the shining example of what CAN be done. 

"Far more solid base"...???

We are one TV contract non-renewal away from no more Full Time Rugby League in the UK. 

We have many thousands less young people playing the game, have lost hundreds of amateur teams and have contracted at reserve and academy/colts level.

Our main exposure to the population has degraded to the point of only half filling Wembley and attracting 20% of the TV audience. Total TV audience has, of course, fallen off a cliff , competitions which gained a large terrestrial audience have been abandoned and the aforementioned Challenge Cup neglected.

All after receiving over half a billion pounds we had no idea we were getting. 

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

"Built many assets"...? 

We now have nearly two thirds of the Elite division playing in non-owned "assets". St Helens  have swapped one reasonably valuable plot of land for a ground in area with co- tenants that ensures they will never be able to cash in as per Knowsley Road again. They and others will also be testing the reliability and longevity of flat pack stadiums before long. Leeds have ceded ownership of half of their ground and are now in the position of being a sub tenant. Not to mention the loss of grounds throughout the lower divisions , the whole Odsal debacle and the continuing decline of Belle Vue and Wheldon Road.

On the credit side Warrington have undoubtedly improved their lot and are probably the shining example of what CAN be done. 

"Far more solid base"...???

We are one TV contract non-renewal away from no more Full Time Rugby League in the UK. 

We have many thousands less young people playing the game, have lost hundreds of amateur teams and have contracted at reserve and academy/colts level.

Our main exposure to the population has degraded to the point of only half filling Wembley and attracting 20% of the TV audience. Total TV audience has, of course, fallen off a cliff , competitions which gained a large terrestrial audience have been abandoned and the aforementioned Challenge Cup neglected.

All after receiving over half a billion pounds we had no idea we were getting. 

Warrington ? 

Having Tesco build them a stadium for free ? 

[gittinsfan]

2 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The ignore option is the only sensible one - I'm at a loss as to why anyone (particularly regulars) continue to engage.

I agree with you but I have fallen for it again.Although sometimes find the sheer stupidity of his replies quite amusing.

[dboy]

25 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

No acknowledgement of, never mind apology for your mistaken accusation?

off person who I hold in very low esteem. Blocked!

[Marty Funkhouser]

9 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 the game was on its last legs pre-sl

I am afraid that is just a popular myth Scotchy that probably came about because of firstly,  Lindsay's emotive rhetoric when trying to press gang the rest of Rugby League into accepting Sky's offer without a proper in depth consultation, secondly because of the ridiculous , truncated 1995 season that led into SL which was as much a waste of time as is the current season, and thirdly because of the ill feeling generated around much of the game from the changes and decisions taking place.

Just prior to the advent of SL  the 1994 Ashes series (and tour 269,000 in total) was watched by the all time biggest crowds in the UK for an international series. It will likely never be beaten in this era. Wigan won the World Club in Australia in front of 55000. London attracted a crowd of 8300 for a home game. Numerous club regular games attracted in excess of 25000. 130,000 watched live three major cup finals all televised on terrestrial TV in 94/95. Nearly 88 million people watched RL on TV during 1994 and 1995, something we can only dream of now , and which will never be repeated. 5 million watched the Challenge Cup final etc etc.

If that is last legs then some clubs need to get back to it pronto.

 

 

[Marty Funkhouser]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Warrington ? 

Having Tesco build them a stadium for free ? 

Nothing wrong with that Gubs , if all clubs could pull that trick off we would be in a fantastic position.

It is more the way they have kicked on from there, upgraded the still new ground, made money, put a good team out, invested in the youth as well as bringing in the big signings, which are welcomed by the watchers of RL, all in a decent Rugby League ground that is a definite upgrade from Wilderspool and wholly owned by the club in a decent location.

They can still mess it up of course, as all RL clubs inevitably do at some point, but at the moment they are a model of improvement.

 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

Nothing wrong with that Gubs , if all clubs could pull that trick off we would be in a fantastic position.

It is more the way they have kicked on from there, upgraded the still new ground, made money, put a good team out, invested in the youth as well as bringing in the big signings, which are welcomed by the watchers of RL, all in a decent Rugby League ground that is a definite upgrade from Wilderspool and wholly owned by the club in a decent location.

They can still mess it up of course, as all RL clubs inevitably do at some point, but at the moment they are a model of improvement.

 

So a free stadium due to Tesco and the council , and then underwritten by Simon Moran , hardly surprising , how many SL titles has it got them ?

[Marty Funkhouser]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

That's not the case though is it. Clubs were struggling, in debt, selling assets.

The international game has been mismanaged for decades but one tour, whilst successful didn't mean the whole game was I'm rude health.

And whilst 5m is fantastic and I'd love to see us get those figures again, they were a product of a time with only 4 tv channels. In 1996 an episode of only fools and horses got 24m. That just doesnt happen now.

Yes we do need to improve in some areas, especially international RL, and yes much more can be done to utilise the challenge cup and nobody is arguing SL is perfect but if we continued to do what we were doing in 1995 we would be further behind than we are.

Scotchy, which of the 4 channels gave Rugby League the £87 million pounds to start RL??

And do not mix up Wigan struggling from Lindsay's mis-management, overpaying and bad model with other areas of the game. More "assets" were sold post SL than before. 

Clubs are STILL struggling, STILL in debt.....AFTER.... HALF A BILLION pounds...

 

[Marty Funkhouser]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

So a free stadium due to Tesco and the council , and then underwritten by Simon Moran , hardly surprising , how many SL titles has it got them ?

None, Bradford got 3...

[LeeF]

8 hours ago, Derwent said:

Today’s news that the Premier League is facing a minimum £360m repayment to its broadcast partners for not meeting contractual obligations is real cause for concern. It’s reported that not completing the season will cost them £750m and a “behind closed doors” rushed end to the season will cost £360m. 

If Sky are taking such action against other sports then it’s not inconceivable that they will also adopt the same approach to RL. In which case the clubs are going to need every penny of this money just to survive if broadcast income is greatly reduced.

The game really is on a knife edge at the moment.

It might not be Sky as they have a number of broadcast partners across the world

[LeeF]

36 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So a free stadium due to Tesco and the council , and then underwritten by Simon Moran , hardly surprising , how many SL titles has it got them ?

Maybe next year

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Maybe next year

Always 

[M j M]

3 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

While what Mr Hetherington said is true , yes currently it works against them , I'd be more inclined to listen to him if he'd managed to build up the diverse income at a less fashionable smaller club without a very rich benefactor ? , Maybe like Sheffield or somewhere like that ?

 

[GUBRATS]

13 minutes ago, M j M said:

 

How much of that was a result of SL central payments ? 

[M j M]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

How much of that was a result of SL central payments ? 

In '96 and '97? Probably around £600k.

A third of the revenue by 1993 was from non-core activities such as non-gameday corporate functions and lotteries; TV income that year was £44k.

But put it this way, nobody in Rugby League needs to tell Gary Hetherington how to make sustainable Rugby League businesses. They might want to listen to him every now and then too.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

In '96 and '97? Probably around £600k.

A third of the revenue by 1993 was from non-core activities such as non-gameday corporate functions and lotteries; TV income that year was £44k.

So similar to Leigh in the division below ?

[M j M]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So similar to Leigh in the division below ?

Come back to us when you're a sustainable business.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, M j M said:

Come back to us when you're a sustainable business.

23 years ago ?

[M j M]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

23 years ago ?

I'm not sure what point you're making any more.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, M j M said:

I'm not sure what point you're making any more.

Yes Gary built up the club , but interestingly it fell apart within 2 years of him leaving , does that suggest he had built sustainability ? , Or had managed to bring in short term investment ? 

Looking at the turnover figures you produced , apart from the SKY revenue they were operating at a similar level to Leigh , who were in the league below , with obviously less profile and therefore lower visiting attendances 

 

[M j M]

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes Gary built up the club , but interestingly it fell apart within 2 years of him leaving , does that suggest he had built sustainability ? , Or had managed to bring in short term investment ? 

Looking at the turnover figures you produced , apart from the SKY revenue they were operating at a similar level to Leigh , who were in the league below , with obviously less profile and therefore lower visiting attendances 

 

Leigh had been around for 100 years. Hetherington built Sheffield single handedly from zero in less than 20. I would hope an RL club in a good Rugby League town like Leigh did have a higher turnover than a scratch built club in a non RL area. The fact that for most of my lifetime Leigh have shown very little sign of making a viable business out of it tells its own story.

As far as I know Sheffield fell apart because the new owners, who handed over a very substantial sum to buy the club from its founder, didn't continue to do the little things right and instead spent big on player salaries. Not something which was ever part of the Hetherington business model.