How do you revitalise the Challenge Cup?

[Hela Wigmen]

Our second highest attended event in the calendar but one attended poorly through the rounds and in the Final too. 

What would you do to revitalise it? Group stages? Scrap it? Change nothing? Turn it into a 9s tournament? 

[Man of Kent]

Free Covid jab with every ticket?

[DEANO]

Stop the loop fixtures and play offs. Then you’ll only play teams 3 times instead of 5

[M j M]

The suggestion I heard last week was good:

All the pro teams get seeded, and are drawn into say seven or eight groups, playing everyone else in the group once. Play these group games back to back at or near the start of the domestic season.

The winning team from each group progresses to the quarter finals, then it follows the normal format. QF and SF can be spaced through the season up to a July or whenever final.

The group games could be drawn just after the previous season ended so can be included in season tickets.

Clubs are all guaranteed at least 2 home games.

The lower league clubs are guaranteed visits to/from bigger clubs (it operates on a share of net receipts basis)

The back end is very much the best of the best but still knockout.

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, M j M said:

The suggestion I heard last week was good:

All the pro teams get seeded, and are drawn into say seven or eight groups, playing everyone else in the group once. Play these group games back to back at or near the start of the domestic season.

The winning team from each group progresses to the quarter finals, then it follows the normal format. QF and SF can be spaced through the season up to a July or whenever final.

The group games could be drawn just after the previous season ended so can be included in season tickets.

Clubs are all guaranteed at least 2 home games.

The lower league clubs are guaranteed visits to/from bigger clubs (it operates on a share of net receipts basis)

The back end is very much the best of the best but still knockout.

The problem I foresee with that idea is that if we were to scrap loop fixtures and replace them with group games in the Challenge Cup, the commercial value is less for the group games in the Challenge Cup, where some home games will be against lower league opposition, than for Super League “loop” home games, especially those against local rivals. 

If there was evidence to the contrary, I’d happily be wrong but I just can’t see it. 

If you could somehow make it profitable, I’d probably go one step further, with the group winners going through to the Challenge Cup Final Last 8, the group runners up (and 3rd, depending on number of teams in the group) going into a separate competition and then the bottom two going into their own knockout competition. Three finals in one day at Wembley, hopefully that would add to the crowd.

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's a separate competition that whilst it can be included in season tickets can also be sold separately.

We’ve been over this, the commercial aspect of games against lower league sides likely holds much less value than those against other Super League teams, even for a second time in a year. 

[Hela Wigmen]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I'd bet you I could sell leeds v Hunslet and leedsnv Bradford and leeds v dewsbury and leeds v batley and leeds v pretty much any championship side in a mini competition on boxing day and new years day commercially far better than they get from a leeds v salford loop fixture. 

It would allow the creation of an event.

It’s convenient how you’ve picked three local sides to Leeds and chosen what dates you want to play on. 

You probably couldn’t sell it as you simply can’t charge the same amount for hospitality packages for Batley or Hunslet at home as you would for Salford at home in Super League. 

How would you sell Leeds vs Coventry or Leeds vs Barrow? 

[ATLANTISMAN]

Its a tough one however I would

* BBC LIVE match Friday evening on BBC 2

* Back to May Final (August will never work its a a corporate disaster not forgetting its holiday time)

* Final May 

* Start it as soon as the 6 Nations finishes (No clashes then on BBC/ITV) 

* Or the ULTIMATE (Sorry to upset many on here) the best thing would be to DUMP IT 

YES I am serious nowadays there should only be ONE competition for the elite clubs the days of small teams winning have gone (Bradford Bulls v Leeds Rhinos excepted LOL:)

At present its lost and far too spread out over the season

SKY SUPER LEAGUE/CHAMPIONSHIP

BBC INTERNATIONALS (And more of them:)

Paul

 

 

[M j M]

34 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Cant Imagine where you read this but this entirely.

Ah did you post similar? It won't have been that as I've got you on ignore; I think it was something Dave Woods said on the Warrington WWBBS podcast.

[Welsh RL & RU watcher]

Don't have a GF, play 22 regular season matches, winner of the league wins the SL Trophy. The C Cup only consists of the top 8 from SL from the pevious season, play the 4 weekends during April, June and July, the C Cup final on the third Saturday of July every yr usually at Wembley but with occasional Cup Finals in Cardiff and Manchester. 

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well yes, the creation of am event does depend a lot on what we are selling and when. 

That's one of the reasons it would be a benefit.

And no, I probably couldnt see leeds v Barrow for massive amounts. But A) that can already happen in the challenge cup, just with a lot less of a runway to sell it. And B) I could probably sell Barrow v leeds sometime after christmas pretty well.

Thats one of the benefits of such a structure, we can control those kind of things 

The fascination with Christmas is a strange one. There’s no need to play then. I’m not sure when, under your plan, you have friendlies, because they’re still needed. With fewer weekly round games, group stage cup games would easily fit into February-March with relative ease and little need for a shake up of fixtures. 

Exactly. While you state the “upside” of a cup draw and getting a favourable draw, there is equal amount of potential to receive a less favourable draw and these games become loss making compared to the Super League games, even those against lesser teams. 

That’s the whole point. While it seems like a good idea, convincing a Super League chairmen to lose up to six fixtures and replace them with two or three games against lower league opposition, where you’re likely going to have to charge much less even if you draw local, lower league sides, is just not going to be an easy sell to these chairmen.

The only way I see it potentially working is you have fewer sides competing in the Group Stages and have a couple of rounds of “qualifiers”, though I’m not sure that’s anything more than filling out the season unnecessarily.

It’s not an idea I’d be against if it worked financially, unfortunately I don’t think it will.

The same goes for any 9s tournaments domestically. I would build it Internationally first, that’s where it sells, not trying to sell a domestic competition, at this stage. If you could get it working financially, I’d happily see events added to the calendar. Again, I’m not sure it’s something that works financially. While it may not be aimed directly at existing Rugby League fans, you need a buy in from a good percentage of existing fans, with the rest made up from these new fans. After one International event and about five or six NRL 9s, I’m not sure it gets the buy in here from our RL fans. 

[ojx]

Have the CC include only English teams, play most of the rounds before the season. This will allow for SL to start later.

[Marauder]

It's decline has nothing to do with the format or when the seeded teams enter the competition IMO, It's the time of year it's being played and the lack of promotion of the final not only nationally but within the M62 corridor. 

[Chris22]

There is only so much that you can do to revitalise the competition. The first relates to structure, of which I can see three options.

1. The current structure.
2. The old structure (Super League clubs enter earlier, that we scrapped as we decided lop-sided blowouts were bad).
3. A more radical 'Champions League' style group structure (which is interesting but would freeze out many lower league clubs).

The second relates to timings and location. Options include the final location. You could keep it at Wembley, which arguably benefits due to the prestige, but is way too big. Alternatives include moving to Cardiff (a more suitable size but less iconic location) or more radically to do what rugby union do for the European Cup Final and move locations annually to keep things fresh.

You could also change the timing. Move the final from August earlier on, perhaps to May as we once did. Again, a radical solution is a Magic Weekend style weekend for quarter finals, but if you move the final to May, a 'Magic' style event in March or April is pretty unappealing. We have tried something similar for semi finals, but that has led to a half empty stadium for each game, which doesn't give a great impression.

The point is, I cannot see any changes that revitalise the competition. The Grand Final, Magic Weekend and international away trips have reduced the unique or special feel of a Wembley Cup Final. Huge, iconic stadiums are now the norm. Travelling to London isn't the occasion it once was.

Another problem is all of our events are aimed at the same limited audience (especially since we play so few internationals in London, despite them attracting the highest crowds). I struggle to see how to sell the earlier rounds of the Cup any more. Meanwhile, the only way to grow the Cup Final is to appeal to new audiences. But it's not easy to sell St Helens vs Warrington to a London population where the majority will not have even heard of those towns!

[Mister Ting]

5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

It's decline has nothing to do with the format or when the seeded teams enter the competition IMO, It's the time of year it's being played and the lack of promotion of the final not only nationally but within the M62 corridor. 

It's decline coincided with the advent of Super League and the SL grand final. It is no longer the big prize.

Whenever or it is played, it will play second fiddle to the Grand Final.

[Toby Chopra]

Honestly? Leave it as it is, it gets the interest that people deem it deserves which is still a profit making level. But cannibalising other parts of the season to try and give it a transfusion of interest seems very dangerous. 

If it starts to make a loss, then call it a day. 

I say this as someone who attends the final every year cos it's in the south where I am. 

But given the choice of an England game in London every year or the CCF, I'd choose the international. 

[wiganermike]

Had the season been able to progress as originally intended then this season we would have had a final taking place away from the August Bank Holiday (and also further away from the playoffs and GF) for the first time in 16 years. We would also have had rounds occurring at much more regular intervals than we have seen in recent years (no more stupid two month gap during which people could forget the cup was happening) with the largest interval coming between the semi finals and final. We won't know until next year what effect those two changes to the cup timetable will have. Hopefully those two changes intended for this year will give the competition a boost.

[Smudger06]

4 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Our second highest attended event in the calendar but one attended poorly through the rounds and in the Final too. 

What would you do to revitalise it? Group stages? Scrap it? Change nothing? Turn it into a 9s tournament? 

I think a group stage should be tried. 

[Tommygilf]

I've been a fan of making the Challenge Cup our equivalent of the champions league for a while now with an essentially open qualified group stage and then knock outs. Mainly as a way for Club sides to get games that aren't loop fixtures (as my preferred option of scrapping loop fixtures for internationals is highly unlikely).

Knock out cups just don't hold the same prestige as they once did. To an extent thats because they've been superceded by other events but also because teams and fans tend to disengage as soon as their team is out. (Which happens far quicker in a knockout comp).

[GUBRATS]

How many times are we discussing this one ? , The nature of RL now means there is less chance of any upsets and we end up seeing the same clubs winning at Wembley every year 

Add in the other new ' events ' we have and there is nothing you can do to increase the interest , so for me look at using other venues as we had when Wembley was being redeveloped 

Other than that nothing will make a difference , and again it seems the world's finest marketeers spend their days playing on RL message boards rather than actually doing any work , they also value their expertise that much that RL couldn't afford them

[GUBRATS]

Funnily enough the wife is just watching the highlights of Wakey v Leigh from 2015 when we came back from 22 points behind to take the match , the magic of the cup , big following from Leigh that day , came so close to putting out Wire in the next round 

[RP London]

11 hours ago, wiganermike said:

Had the season been able to progress as originally intended then this season we would have had a final taking place away from the August Bank Holiday (and also further away from the playoffs and GF) for the first time in 16 years. We would also have had rounds occurring at much more regular intervals than we have seen in recent years (no more stupid two month gap during which people could forget the cup was happening) with the largest interval coming between the semi finals and final. We won't know until next year what effect those two changes to the cup timetable will have. Hopefully those two changes intended for this year will give the competition a boost.

completely agree.. there have been changes made that have been asked for by many for a while.. keep the rounds close together and get the final earlier. Until we know whether that works or not why tinker anymore with it.. these may be the things that solve the "problem".

[Gooleboy]

This could be Mr Elstone's first project if he keeps his job in the potential new RL structure.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

This could be Mr Elstone's first project if he keeps his job in the potential new RL structure.

Why? Its not a Super League competition?

[Chris Taylor]

If you were a neutral supporter where would you spend roughly £100 for an event. 

1 - Challenge Cup Final

2 - Magic Weekend

I'd pick no.2, i'd get so much more value for money. It feels like a bigger event, than the challenge cup. 

Since the introduction of magic weekend has that been inline with the drop in crowd of the challenge cup? 

Rugby League supporters I would imagine couldn't afford to do both?