Ottawa - try outs for Canadians.

[Harry Stottle]

31 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I'm not going over it again for you Harry...you've got to learn to listen the first tine....and second time....and third time......methinks you need new batteries for the ear listeners!

Ageism carries a custodial sentence or fine in this country.

The fact of not remembering what you said most probably is because it was a load of inconsequential nonsense, with you trying to defend the indefensible, don't forget I knew a few on Toronto's pay roll at the time personally and gleaned some information on the subject from them. 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

Weren't a lot of the original Wolfpack trialists American not Canadian, which would preclude them from the trial? Eichner and Burrows, two that were taken on, are American at least. 

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Ageism carries a custodial sentence or fine in this country.

The fact of not remembering what you said most probably is because it was a load of inconsequential nonsense, with you trying to defend the indefensible, don't forget I knew a few on Toronto's pay roll at the time personally and gleaned some information on the subject from them. 

Please expand.

[Oldbear]

I just hope that any player that does get awarded a contract gets the right coaching, my experience of Canadian RU, certainly at the junior level, is that coaching is very poor, teams relying on players with raw talent, and little done to develop skills. The most important decision Ottawa will make will be their coaching team, they will need to be able to work with raw recruits and be able to blend them with experienced pros. Hopefully one or two will show enough to become more than a bench warmer, but also you need a coach who is willing to give some of these guys game time, especially against the likes of West Wales, Coventry and Skolors. One thing I never understood was Toronto’s attitude of wanting to storm League 1 racking up big wins, they could have easily won League 1 blooding a few Canadians off the bench, but chose not to, was Rowley not interested in player development?

[TboneFromTO]

22 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

they could have easily won League 1 blooding a few Canadians off the bench, but chose not to, was Rowley not interested in player development

They had 5 players from their last tackle thing, but due to some sort of visa issues couldn't use them. Then they were in the championship and just kept looking forward, blinders on

Ottawa seem keen to grow some cannucks into RL players

[The Great Dane]

What happens once they move up to Championship and suddenly a third of their roster are players that are totally out of their depth, what happens to the Canadian players then?

Are they just gonna replace them all and accept the criticism for getting rid of all their Canadian players, or are they going to eat the losses as they throw these guys into the deep end and hope they float, all the while watching as losses mount up and and interest in the local 'rugby' team dries up.

You can't just get a bunch of guys, give them game time, and expect that they will all just steadily develop into strong players given time. If player development was that simple then everybody on the planet would be a professional sportsman.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

I just hope that any player that does get awarded a contract gets the right coaching, my experience of Canadian RU, certainly at the junior level, is that coaching is very poor, teams relying on players with raw talent, and little done to develop skills. The most important decision Ottawa will make will be their coaching team, they will need to be able to work with raw recruits and be able to blend them with experienced pros. Hopefully one or two will show enough to become more than a bench warmer, but also you need a coach who is willing to give some of these guys game time, especially against the likes of West Wales, Coventry and Skolors. One thing I never understood was Toronto’s attitude of wanting to storm League 1 racking up big wins, they could have easily won League 1 blooding a few Canadians off the bench, but chose not to, was Rowley not interested in player development?

No matter how hard you try you can't train a pony to be a thoroughbred.

[TboneFromTO]

35 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

What happens once they move up to Championship and suddenly a third of their roster are players that are totally out of their depth, what happens to the Canadian players then?

They've said theyre happy to mull around league one and develope.  They get promoted, they keep players.  Relegated again? Fine.

Many teams have been operating that way for years...

[Oldbear]

37 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

No matter how hard you try you can't train a pony to be a thoroughbred.

So you wouldn’t even bother trying? Obviously some of these guys won’t even make it to the starting line, but a few just might, and if their role over the next 2-3 years is taking up roster spots 22-25 than that’s life, don’t all teams off load players as they move up the ranks.

I just don’t see the point of there even being an Ottawa team if all they are going to do is blindly follow Toronto, they have to do at least some things different, and trying to find some Canadian talent is one of them. After all it’s not expansion if all we are doing is putting another 25 Brits/Aussies/Kiwis in red jerseys, but if say 2 of those 25 happen to be Canadian then you are offering a potential career path to young Canadian athletes. I think you would be surprised just how much raw talent exists, but I stress again the coaching hire is the number one factor here, get it right and the long term could get interesting, get it wrong and it will fail.

[Keith989]

29 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

They've said theyre happy to mull around league one and develope.  They get promoted, they keep players.  Relegated again? Fine.

Many teams have been operating that way for years...

Is that possible to sustain financially for a NA team though?

[TboneFromTO]

4 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

Is that possible to sustain financially for a NA team though?

Depends on revenue contracts and attendance on the home side doesn't it?

I lived in Ottawa while I did my teacher training, definitely the appetite for parties and sport (and together too!)

[TheReaper]

1 hour ago, TboneFromTO said:

They've said theyre happy to mull around league one and develope.  They get promoted, they keep players.  Relegated again? Fine.

Many teams have been operating that way for years...

For how proud the English are of P+R, I'd have assumed this was the default. If you're ditching most of the squad with each rise or drop is it really the same team?

If it's the club one is cheering for and doesn't mind the squad turnover, then why any criticism of where players come from? 

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I just hope that any player that does get awarded a contract gets the right coaching, my experience of Canadian RU, certainly at the junior level, is that coaching is very poor, teams relying on players with raw talent, and little done to develop skills. The most important decision Ottawa will make will be their coaching team, they will need to be able to work with raw recruits and be able to blend them with experienced pros. Hopefully one or two will show enough to become more than a bench warmer, but also you need a coach who is willing to give some of these guys game time, especially against the likes of West Wales, Coventry and Skolors. One thing I never understood was Toronto’s attitude of wanting to storm League 1 racking up big wins, they could have easily won League 1 blooding a few Canadians off the bench, but chose not to, was Rowley not interested in player development?

Paul Rowley irrespective of what squad is at his disposal would always put his best team selection on the field, a system that completely backfired on him in his last season at Leigh '15, the team literally walked through the Championship just losing one game and drawing another, it was the first season of the 8's and preperation of the whole squad should have been at the fore in case of injuries, illness or whatever that would deem some player's not available for selection in this new system, he didn't prepare the whole squad with game time etc he tempted Murphy's Law and it came crashing down on him, injuries to key personnel accured and he did not have player's up to speed who had to fill in, consequently they lost 6 from 7 games in the 8's

Make of that what you will Oldbear.

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Please expand.

I am not going to disclose names or what I was told in confidence on these pages that is something I would never do, nor would it be something that I would expect from your goodself.

But back to the point in question, you said "the TEN will be big, they will be strong and they will be determined" I was tring to ascertain if that type of player/man is available now - and ten of them - why did they not surface previously?

[TboneFromTO]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

But back to the point in question, you said "the TEN will be big, they will be strong and they will be determined" I was tring to ascertain if that type of player/man is available now - and ten of them - why did they not surface previously?

I think they will be available now.  I don't think the Wolfpack got the best of the best because of the unknown factor (who knows how long it will last so why bother) 

Now that there is perceived stability in the sport in Canada I feel you'll see more quality come out.

Unless of course the last tackle damaged the idea by not taking on many players (they did initially say up to 17 spots)

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

I think they will be available now.  I don't think the Wolfpack got the best of the best because of the unknown factor (who knows how long it will last so why bother) 

Now that there is perceived stability in the sport in Canada I feel you'll see more quality come out.

Unless of course the last tackle damaged the idea by not taking on many players (they did initially say up to 17 spots)

So do you think it will encourage those who are not deemed as "the best of the best" to take up the sport, obviously it will take volunteer's to organise and originate teams and league structures.

Going forward, that is what is required for player's of Rugby League - as in any other sport - the need and requirement to grow up with a sport, that have established advancement programmes for the better performers to always take them to the next level and hopefully to the very top level.

It is very admirable if Ottawa could produce 10 guys with no expierence whatsoever to perform competitively at League 1 level, somehow I doubt it could/would happen and I doubt the backers of Ottawa would settle for an extended period in League 1, I will make a prophecy now in that Ottawa will emulate Toronto and buy their way through the league system with seasoned RL professionals and that will be without any Canadians excepting for hopefully "The Best of the Best". 

Also you have the advantage over me Tbone "The last Tackle" please emphasise?

[Harry Stottle]

On 13/05/2020 at 18:24, TboneFromTO said:

I hope they fill the 10!

Eric Perez was on the Outlaw Rugby league podcast today and said the have over 100 applicants for the trials already, it was a good listen!

Mr Perez is always good to listen to and apparently very persuasive, he has convinced Mr Argyle and the Ottawa consortium to back his scheme's, but there are portions of his statements that he has not delivered on, I hope for the sake of his reputation alone he can deliver this time around.

[TboneFromTO]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Also you have the advantage over me Tbone "The last Tackle" please emphasise?

It was the docu series the Wolfpack made about the trialist system they ran before entering the league system.  It's on YouTube still, it's not a bad watch but not as gritty as I was hoping for. There was alot of emphasis early on about the up to 17 contracts thing.  Unfortunately they turned into an internet provider where 5 contracts still fits with the upto claim.

18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So do you think it will encourage those who are not deemed as "the best of the best" to take up the sport, obviously it will take volunteer's to organise and originate teams and league structures.

Sport carries a social aspect to it, if the club can produce a quality game day experience and then market that towards, come play and experience this more then it should (emphasis on should) work.  But they have to put those systems in place (unlike Toronto who havn't really yet). 

I hope Ottawa quickly gain a local structure, it might not be attainable in year one - you gotta get the boat in the water first - but they should at least attempt to run pick up type (maybe tag rugby league style at first) events to get people playing enjoying and laughing.

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

prophecy now in that Ottawa will emulate Toronto and buy their way through the league system with seasoned RL professionals and that will be without any Canadians excepting for hopefully "The Best of the Best". 

I hope you're wrong Harry! Although time will tell.

 

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Mr Perez is always good to listen to and apparently very persuasive, he has convinced Mr Argyle and the Ottawa consortium to back his scheme's, but there are portions of his statements that he has not delivered on, I hope for the sake of his reputation alone he can deliver this time around.

I personally feel (hope) that the main reason for his departure from Toronto was the lack of Canadian development.  I mean he did help Bradford get back on track, and maybe while he was there he learned a thing or two about local development!

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am not going to disclose names or what I was told in confidence on these pages that is something I would never do, nor would it be something that I would expect from your goodself.

But back to the point in question, you said "the TEN will be big, they will be strong and they will be determined" I was tring to ascertain if that type of player/man is available now - and ten of them - why did they not surface previously?

Your point is well taken Harry and I think TBone has given a good response above.....in a greater sense its just part of the development of something unique and brand new, the growth of RL in Canada....its an interesting learning curve and certainly isn't over yet.....I know this terminology might not be familiar to you but Toronto attempted to 'spike' the curve while Ottawa is attempting to 'flatten' the curve....hope this helps.

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

It was the docu series the Wolfpack made about the trialist system they ran before entering the league system.  It's on YouTube still, it's not a bad watch but not as gritty as I was hoping for. There was alot of emphasis early on about the up to 17 contracts thing.  Unfortunately they turned into an internet provider where 5 contracts still fits with the upto claim.

Sport carries a social aspect to it, if the club can produce a quality game day experience and then market that towards, come play and experience this more then it should (emphasis on should) work.  But they have to put those systems in place (unlike Toronto who havn't really yet). 

I hope Ottawa quickly gain a local structure, it might not be attainable in year one - you gotta get the boat in the water first - but they should at least attempt to run pick up type (maybe tag rugby league style at first) events to get people playing enjoying and laughing.

I hope you're wrong Harry! Although time will tell.

 

I personally feel (hope) that the main reason for his departure from Toronto was the lack of Canadian development.  I mean he did help Bradford get back on track, and maybe while he was there he learned a thing or two about local development!

Thanks for that Tbone all quite logical, but Mr Perez's involvement in getting Bradford back on track and local development? Bradford have quite a large catchment area of player's already at the stage of the "best of the best" at their age level who they take on, they just have to nurture the 'best of those best' along their pathway.

[TboneFromTO]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for that Tbone all quite logical, but Mr Perez's involvement in getting Bradford back on track and local development? Bradford have quite a large catchment area of player's already at the stage of the "best of the best" at their age level who they take on, they just have to nurture the 'best of those best' along their pathway.

He was interim chair for a while, they got back on track financially there.  I hope he was paying attention to what Bradford were doing at the local level player development wise and took notes! If that means he saw how many clubs it took to create what Bradford has I hope he took it as a lesson.  I hope his stint there was as good for him as it was for Bradford.

But since I'm being logical and this is league we are talking I'm probably way wrong lol

[Kayakman]

29 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for that Tbone all quite logical, but Mr Perez's involvement in getting Bradford back on track and local development? Bradford have quite a large catchment area of player's already at the stage of the "best of the best" at their age level who they take on, they just have to nurture the 'best of those best' along their pathway.

It takes time Harry...it all takes time.   Actually I'm quite surprised that you continue to be anti RL development in the New World.....I thought you supported rugby development?

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Your point is well taken Harry and I think TBone has given a good response above.....in a greater sense its just part of the development of something unique and brand new, the growth of RL in Canada....its an interesting learning curve and certainly isn't over yet.....I know this terminology might not be familiar to you but Toronto attempted to 'spike' the curve while Ottawa is attempting to 'flatten' the curve....hope this helps.

Realistically I hope and trust it 'certainly isn't over yet' I have said it before and will state catagorically if the North American experience is to have any life expectancy it has to be a sport the natives want to get involved in and promote from within, to succeed it has to become a way of life for a lot of people and not just an excursion every now and then to take in a viewing, otherwise it will just prove to be a flavour of the month and people will move on to next tasty morsel that comes along.

Yes I am very much au fait with your 'spike' and 'flattend' curves, but I have no doubt as I said previously if Ottawa's 'flatter' approach doesn't bring any success in advancing through the division's the backers will want success and the fan's will be looking down the road to Toronto and demanding they too have the opportunity to play at the top level and against Toronto which is a quite normal attitude for any owner's and supporter's of any club to have, when that happens the 'flattened' curve will head in a northerly direction and very quickly.

[Kayakman]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Realistically I hope and trust it 'certainly isn't over yet' I have said it before and will state catagorically if the North American experience is to have any life expectancy it has to be a sport the natives want to get involved in and promote from within, to succeed it has to become a way of life for a lot of people and not just an excursion every now and then to take in a viewing, otherwise it will just prove to be a flavour of the month and people will move on to next tasty morsel that comes along.

Yes I am very much au fait with your 'spike' and 'flattend' curves, but I have no doubt as I said previously if Ottawa's 'flatter' approach doesn't bring any success in advancing through the division's the backers will want success and the fan's will be looking down the road to Toronto and demanding they too have the opportunity to play at the top level and against Toronto which is a quite normal attitude for any owner's and supporter's of any club to have, when that happens the 'flattened' curve will head in a northerly direction and very quickly.

Its going to be a balancing act for Ottawa, no doubt, with Perez acting as the conductor of the symphony......he will win you over yet you old Cuss.

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

It takes time Harry...it all takes time.   Actually I'm quite surprised that you continue to be anti RL development in the New World.....I thought you supported rugby development?

I certainly do, but I am also a conservationist I believe that to quick a move could make to many radical decisions that could effect the game over here.

Was your choice of the word 'development' deliberate as opposed to oft used 'expansion' which without increasing in partcipants is not really 'expansion' in my opinion.