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Lowdesert

Ottawa - try outs for Canadians.

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9 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

It takes time Harry...it all takes time.   Actually I'm quite surprised that you continue to be anti RL development in the New World.....I thought you supported rugby development?

I certainly do, but I am also a conservationist I believe that to quick a move could make to many radical decisions that could effect the game over here.

Was your choice of the word 'development' deliberate as opposed to oft used 'expansion' which without increasing in partcipants is not really 'expansion' in my opinion.

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If you have got this far down DKW, please comment with more than just an emoji, I have plenty of time to read your contribution to the debate, what is it with Cumbrians and monosyllabic comments, if you are going to join in please do so with an emphatic and assertive response you never know I could be converted with your words of wisdom!

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17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If you have got this far down DKW, please comment with more than just an emoji, I have plenty of time to read your contribution to the debate, what is it with Cumbrians and monosyllabic comments, if you are going to join in please do so with an emphatic and assertive response you never know I could be converted with your words of wisdom!

"ooh i know something, someone told me"

What was it?

"I cant tell you"....

Yeah, really amazing contribution from you there....I just cant compete with an amazing intellect like you...

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28 minutes ago, dkw said:

"ooh i know something, someone told me"

What was it?

"I cant tell you"....

Yeah, really amazing contribution from you there....I just cant compete with an amazing intellect like you...

Pathetic attempt of a sidestep, so you obviously did get down to the bottom of the discussions and still have nothing to add to the discussion, I am not in the least bit surprised. 

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Now now you two....have a beer and make up!

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I certainly do, but I am also a conservationist I believe that to quick a move could make to many radical decisions that could effect the game over here.

Was your choice of the word 'development' deliberate as opposed to oft used 'expansion' which without increasing in partcipants is not really 'expansion' in my opinion.

There has been nothing 'quick' about it unless you like to watch paint dry!  Toronto has been around for a number of years and the development of Ottawa as a hub has also been in planning for years....you know this!  It is clearly a well thought out expansion, of which development is playing a major role...it takes time as you have so often noted in your posts....just look at Leigh...look at how long it has taken them....I think you know you are being outpaced by the 'newcomers' .

Expansion and development are like Siamese twins...and you also know that Oldtimer!

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42 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

twins...and you also know that Oldtimer!

Firstly Old Cus and now Old Timer!

In times gone bye when I used to jokingly say to my mother in her advanced years, "hurry up you old bhugger" she would reply with " I have managed to reach this age, will you", take care K'man?

Edited by Harry Stottle
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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Firstly Cus and now Old Timer!

In times gone bye when I used to jokingly say to my mother in her advanced years, "hurry up you old bhugger" she would reply with " I have managed to reach this age, will you", take care K'man?

A New Age has dawned Harry...for RL and many other fields....we cannot forget the lessons learned from our elders...but we should not shy away from the future either!

Fear of the unknown is not something we should hide from.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Pathetic attempt of a sidestep, so you obviously did get down to the bottom of the discussions and still have nothing to add to the discussion, I am not in the least bit surprised. 

Stop crying, you posted a load of rubbish and i laughed it. There`s literally no point getting involved in these threads anymore as you take control of them and fill them with your embarrassing agenda driven garbage every time. 

Edited by dkw

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6 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

A New Age has dawned Harry...for RL and many other fields....we cannot forget the lessons learned from our elders...but we should not shy away from the future either!

Fear of the unknown is not something we should hide from.

But many a good lesson has been learned from the saying "Look before you Leap". TWP are far from a proven process, we are still learning if whether or not they are a good fit for the RFL/SL.

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23 minutes ago, dkw said:

Stop crying, you posted a load of rubbish and i laughed it. There`s literally no point getting involved in these threads anymore as you take control of them and fill them with your embarrassing agenda driven garbage every time. 

Sorry, I didn't see anymore in your response after you posted "laughed at it", did you add to it later?

Irrespective though what we write is all about opinion's and how we view and conceive things DK what you see as "embarrassing driven garbage" makes a lot of sense to me, it may be the majority view on this site is full throttle ahead for the North American excersize, but that is not the opinion on other social media, if you just want everybody in agreement go to an appreciation society and leave those who wish to discuss differing opinions to do precisely that, and not insult others.

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8 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I certainly do, but I am also a conservationist I believe that to quick a move could make to many radical decisions that could effect the game over here.

Was your choice of the word 'development' deliberate as opposed to oft used 'expansion' which without increasing in partcipants is not really 'expansion' in my opinion.

I get really tired of this.

Players are part of "the game". If the number of players has expanded, the game has expanded.

Coaches are part of "the game". If the number of coaches has expanded, the game has expanded.

Clubs are part of "the game". If the number of clubs has expanded, the game has expanded.

Fans are part of "the game". If the number of fans has expanded, the game has expanded.

 

It's you who needs to qualify that you only mean players when discussing "expansion".

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23 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

They've said theyre happy to mull around league one and develope.  They get promoted, they keep players.  Relegated again? Fine.

Many teams have been operating that way for years...

Almost all of which live hand to mouth on death's door with tiny support bases.

They're risking their business's viability on a plan, that will never have a good success rate, to attempt to develop Canadian players to appease a very loud minority of people.  A loud minority that is made up of people whom A. don't have any understanding of what actually goes into player development, and B. aren't the Aces target audience anyway, so why do you care what there opinion is.

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1 minute ago, The Great Dane said:

Almost all of which live hand to mouth on death's door with tiny support bases.

They're risking their business's viability on a plan, that will never have a good success rate, to attempt to develop Canadian players to appease a very loud minority of people.  A loud minority that is made up of people whom A. don't have any understanding of what actually goes into player development, and B. aren't the Aces target audience anyway, so why do you care what there opinion is.

You've convinced me Dane, screw my country men and spend to the cap!?

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22 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

Depends on revenue contracts and attendance on the home side doesn't it?

I lived in Ottawa while I did my teacher training, definitely the appetite for parties and sport (and together too!)

Yeah I've always said I can see Ottawa doing well, I think their attendances will shock people like the Wolfpack did.. I just don't see why they would go to the trouble of making the team if they're happy to lose money playing in the lower leagues. Besides there isn't exactly any panic to produce Canadian players given the lack of an international scene.

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10 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

Besides there isn't exactly any panic to produce Canadian players given the lack of an international scene.

I think you're right, but wrong.  There isn't an urgency due to the lack of international scene, but I think a strong national scene must be on the minds of the aces staff for a few reasons.  People in the capital are fiercely patriotic, so if they can help kick start the international scene, it would cement the city for international rl in Canada.  TD is miles better then Lamport facilities wise for that.

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On 15/05/2020 at 06:46, Oldbear said:

So you wouldn’t even bother trying? Obviously some of these guys won’t even make it to the starting line, but a few just might, and if their role over the next 2-3 years is taking up roster spots 22-25 than that’s life, don’t all teams off load players as they move up the ranks.

Honestly, considering the way that they are attempting to do it, no I wouldn't even bother trying. It's an expensive exercise in futility.

But that isn't to say that I wouldn't try to develop Canadian players at all, I just wouldn't try to build the penthouse before I've laid the foundations.

Without knowing exactly what Ottawa wants to achieve (i.e. do they just want Canadian players as quickly as possible, do they want to build a juniors system and start producing their own talent, etc, etc) it's hard to say exactly what I'd do, but I definitely wouldn't waste a bunch of money on RU players that weren't good enough to make it in their own sport, drop them into the first grade team where they are going to be way out of their depth, and just hope they float.

On 15/05/2020 at 06:46, Oldbear said:

I just don’t see the point of there even being an Ottawa team if all they are going to do is blindly follow Toronto, they have to do at least some things different, and trying to find some Canadian talent is one of them. After all it’s not expansion if all we are doing is putting another 25 Brits/Aussies/Kiwis in red jerseys, but if say 2 of those 25 happen to be Canadian then you are offering a potential career path to young Canadian athletes. I think you would be surprised just how much raw talent exists, but I stress again the coaching hire is the number one factor here, get it right and the long term could get interesting, get it wrong and it will fail.

It doesn't matter how good the head coach is, if he's got players that simply aren't ready to play at the teams level yet, and he doesn't have the resources to give those players experience and time to develop their skills (which he won't at Ottawa), then there isn't much he can do on the fly to get them where they need to be.

If the Aces have there heart set on going down this route, then the number one factor in developing these guys isn't going to be the head coach of the first grade team (although, obviously getting one that is good a developing talent and getting more out of his players would be invaluable in it's own way), it's finding a strong team, that has a history of developing strong talent, and is willing to act as the reserve grade team/feeder system for Ottawa.

Edited by The Great Dane

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48 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

You've convinced me Dane, screw my country men and spend to the cap!?

I know you're joking, but that's not even what I'm saying though.

I'm not saying just go for success and don't bother trying to develop Canadian players. I'm saying that there're much more effective ways to develop talent, that also won't have anywhere near the impact on Ottawa's fist grade team, and that if they are willing to put in the hard work, then Ottawa should save the money that they'd be wasting on their current plan, and invest it in one of those other more effective plans.

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34 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

I know you're joking, but that's not even what I'm saying though.

I'm not saying just go for success and don't bother trying to develop Canadian players. I'm saying that there're much more effective ways to develop talent, that also won't have anywhere near the impact on Ottawa's fist grade team, and that if they are willing to put in the hard work, then Ottawa should save the money that they'd be wasting on their current plan, and invest it in one of those other more effective plans.

What more effective plan?

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7 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

That depends on what it is exactly that Ottawa wants to achieve.

They don't want to win league one by 70+ points most matches like the pack did. It seems from Mr Perez's interviews they want to have a mix of Canadians and experienced professionals, and have stated if they stay in league one for a few years while the Canadians develop then fine by them.

I cannot see a more financially responsible model of doing this , nore can I see a quicker model of doing this.  

I hope they will sort out local development sooner rather than later (unlike the wolf pack) and we should be mindful that could look different to what exists in the UK

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I think we should all note that this is Ottawa's preferred plan. Should it prove unsuccessful, either because there simply isn't the native talent And/or the local fans don't turn out in sufficient numbers to make it financially viable, then the Aces will switch to Plan B - the Wolfpack model.

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11 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

They don't want to win league one by 70+ points most matches like the pack did. It seems from Mr Perez's interviews they want to have a mix of Canadians and experienced professionals, and have stated if they stay in league one for a few years while the Canadians develop then fine by them.

I cannot see a more financially responsible model of doing this , nore can I see a quicker model of doing this.

That doesn't quite answer the question, but let's just assume that their goal is to get some Canadian players up to SL standard as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Then what Ottawa should be looking into doing is getting in contact with clubs in Australia and England (I'd probably target Australian ones because the talent pool is deeper, there's more competition, and there's just generally a lot more money and resources going into junior leagues in Australia), and find one, or more, that are willing to do a joint development deal with you.

Then go out and sign as much of the best Canadian talent from other sports that you can find.

Ideally you'd want to get kids at around 15-16 years old, but that might not be possible because of visa issues, and it's more expensive with their families and organising scholarships and the such. So if you can't get them that young then just try to get them as young as possible, but really they should be younger than 20.

Once they've done that the Aces just send them off Australia and/or England and let those clubs do the developing for a few years.

Doing it that way will achieve two things:  firstly, the clubs overseas have established juniors systems where it'll be possible to place the players in teams and competitions that are suitable for their skill level, so you're not just throwing the players into the deep end and hoping they float.

Secondly, it means that Ottawa can have juniors on the boil without them being a liability by taking up spaces on their first grade roster. So they can build the best first grade team possible, make a name for themselves back home by winning games, and when they are ready in a few years time, hopefully, some of the Canadian players will start to trickle through to their first grade team.

That plan is a win-win where Ottawa gets the best of both words, but I should note that unless you have broader infrastructure in place (i.e. junior clubs of your own with a pathway to professionalism) any plan to convert talent from other sports is only a short term solution, that can't be maintained long term because it's very expensive. So no matter what they do in the short term their long term goal should always be to build a nursery back home in Canada.

12 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

I hope they will sort out local development sooner rather than later (unlike the wolf pack) and we should be mindful that could look different to what exists in the UK

It's not possible to sort out local development quickly.

It'll take years just to get all the infrastructure in place, and decades before they start regularly producing players.

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