Euro XIIIs

[yanto]

8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Jesus christ, its some lads wanting to play some RL in europe at a bit higher level than they do domestically. Its not Fredo working with Hyman Roth

Thing is what I'm reading is the RLEF are willing to discuss this idea but need more information from Euro XIII before they can make an assessment. 

Now that's reasonable. 

Following our initial meeting with the organisers of Euro XIII, the RLEF requested specific detailed information on its proposal of a club competition.

This included information on the ownership structure of Euro XIII, financial investment sources to underwrite the tournament and costs to be covered by clubs entering the competition

Without this information, the Board of RLEF cannot make a proper assessment of the competition or potential relationshipwith Euro XIII.

 

[fighting irish]

8 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Great episode. Tom Baker was superb as Captain Rum. I must just point out that it was the Isle of Wight, not Portsmouth Harbour - both are in my neck of the woods, so just wanted to correct that.

Also, I don't think Rum was that concerned with Health and Safety - he just was clueless about sailing. In fact, such was his lack of care and preparation that he sailed to some foreign land, thought he was in Southampton, and got off the boat only to be killed and eaten by the natives.

So, perhaps Captain Rum is a good example of why it's important to be cautious when doing certain things, and why you need to do proper research and planning. It could be said - using your example - that you're the Blackadder, and Dean Buchan is Captain Rum. You're trusting him, but has he done the required planning and does he have the necessary skills? I can't answer that - I'm just posing the question.

yes it was a great episode, but so long since i've seen it I'd mistaken Portsmouth for the Isle of Wight. Ha  ha. I'd also forgotten about him being eaten by the natives.

At risk of being misunderstood, I'll offer some additional explanation for my comments

I got into this discussion because the overwhelming attitude towards this venture by the majority of posters was that it was at best a folly and at worst a criminal undertaking.

All these opinions were based, not on factual evidence but on the complete absence of evidence because the knockers had nothing to go on.

Hardly anyone, other than Eddie and Scotchy were even willing to wait and see what it was all about and how it might turn out.

This response is ''normal''.

The first reaction of the envious to anyone with a spark of individuality, to the creative, avant garde pioneers is always malevolent. Like I said about the first man to discover and harness fire, being burned at the stake for his troubles.

Well I despise that malevolence and I despise the envy at the bottom of it. (Its one of the seven deadly sins you know?) So I'm calling it out. 

In contrast, I have the utmost admiration for the creatives, the courageous, the passionate, the genius willing to endure the tirade of abuse by spiteful no-marks not fit to lace their boots, willing to face the threats, stare down the sneering ridicule, suffer the bilious loathing, in order to achieve their goals and bring the benefits to us all.

I admire their willingness to put their money where their mouths are and when they see an opportunity (usually dressed in working clothes) they go after it, they get on with it, often grasping nettles, striving to bring the dream to life. They make life interesting and they live lives worth living. 

I don't know if this chap can make this work, but I'm not going to knock him. I wish him well.

I put it to you 17st giant that we need more people like him. More doers, movers, and shakers.

We've got plenty, more than our fair share of the uninspired, the lack-lustre,, indolent, nasty, do-nothing-knockers. Parky lives on.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

We've got plenty, more than our fair share of the uninspired, the lack-lustre,, indolent, nasty, do-nothing-knockers. Parky lives on.

I'm literally sat here with my first ever season Toronto Wolfpack polo shirt on...

[del capo]

4 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

yes it was a great episode, but so long since i've seen it I'd mistaken Portsmouth for the Isle of Wight. Ha  ha. I'd also forgotten about him being eaten by the natives.

At risk of being misunderstood, I'll offer some additional explanation for my comments

I got into this discussion because the overwhelming attitude towards this venture by the majority of posters was that it was at best a folly and at worst a criminal undertaking.

All these opinions were based, not on factual evidence but on the complete absence of evidence because the knockers had nothing to go on.

Hardly anyone, other than Eddie and Scotchy were even willing to wait and see what it was all about and how it might turn out.

This response is ''normal''.

The first reaction of the envious to anyone with a spark of individuality, to the creative, avant garde pioneers is always malevolent. Like I said about the first man to discover and harness fire, being burned at the stake for his troubles.

Well I despise that malevolence and I despise the envy at the bottom of it. (Its one of the seven deadly sins you know?) So I'm calling it out. 

In contrast, I have the utmost admiration for the creatives, the courageous, the passionate, the genius willing to endure the tirade of abuse by spiteful no-marks not fit to lace their boots, willing to face the threats, stare down the sneering ridicule, suffer the bilious loathing, in order to achieve their goals and bring the benefits to us all.

I admire their willingness to put their money where their mouths are and when they see an opportunity (usually dressed in working clothes) they go after it, they get on with it, often grasping nettles, striving to bring the dream to life. They make life interesting and they live lives worth living. 

I don't know if this chap can make this work, but I'm not going to knock him. I wish him well.

I put it to you 17st giant that we need more people like him. More doers, movers, and shakers.

We've got plenty, more than our fair share of the uninspired, the lack-lustre,, indolent, nasty, do-nothing-knockers. Parky lives on.

So far off the mark

If they can analyse the detail  then most existing set up 's will more than  be supportive  of this venture

 And your history Fighting Irish of turning RL sides out for a full 20 week season in the last 3 years ?

Should'nt be getting fed  up of key board warriors on this forum - my apologies please keep it coming....

 

Thought not .....

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

The first reaction of the envious to anyone with a spark of individuality, to the creative, avant garde pioneers is always malevolent. Like I said about the first man to discover and harness fire, being burned at the stake for his troubles.

Well I despise that malevolence and I despise the envy at the bottom of it. (Its one of the seven deadly sins you know?) So I'm calling it out. 

In contrast, I have the utmost admiration for the creatives, the courageous, the passionate, the genius willing to endure the tirade of abuse by spiteful no-marks not fit to lace their boots, willing to face the threats, stare down the sneering ridicule, suffer the bilious loathing, in order to achieve their goals and bring the benefits to us all.

I admire their willingness to put their money where their mouths are and when they see an opportunity (usually dressed in working clothes) they go after it, they get on with it, often grasping nettles, striving to bring the dream to life. They make life interesting and they live lives worth living. 

I don't know if this chap can make this work, but I'm not going to knock him. I wish him well.

I put it to you 17st giant that we need more people like him. More doers, movers, and shakers.

We've got plenty, more than our fair share of the uninspired, the lack-lustre,, indolent, nasty, do-nothing-knockers. Parky lives on.

I've disagreed with many posters on here about all sorts of issues, not least expansion which I have vehemently and consistently supported. But not once have I ever accused someone I disagree with, not even Parky, of malevolence towards the game. If you think that you should report the poster and they should be banned as they do not belong on a rugby league forum.

The ironic thing is not one person on this thread has wished the competition ill fortune. Yourself and others have hastily tried to clamp down on any intelligent critique as negative and now "malevolent", "indolent" and "nasty". However, as far as I can see people associated with varying levels, but almost universally positive experiences, of expansion are looking at this venture with healthy scepticism because we very much would like something akin to this competition to succeed.

As far as the RL community goes, we should be the easier one's to win over - yet for daring to question the rather obvious gaps in logic, aims, strategy and purpose of this competition we are now pariahs? 101 in how to lose friends and alienate people there mate.

[langpark]

21 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Clubs pay an entrance fee that gets them a kit, travel and a couple of ringers. Organisers negotiate all this at bulk rates and take a cut off the top. 

Would that be the worst thing in the world?

Not if they haven't been misled to believe otherwise.  As Yanto says, a lot of the clubs still seem to be in the dark regarding a lot of this vital information.  Pretty strange to say the least.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

We have had people complain that they havent followed the RFL/Barla rules for taking children on tour, 

People complain that they followed up on expressions of interest

The pretence that this thread is filled with intelligent critique has long since disappeared

That's the criteria for any adult tour, indeed I didn't see CRB checking which would be essential for a youth trip. So that's wrong; I was going to correct you earlier on that point but it seemed rather obvious to me, but that's that sorted.

Who followed up on expressions of interest and in what context? If that bothers you don't engage that poster, I know I haven't because I can't remember it. If its not sensible adult debate why entertain it?

Bear in mind that I and others have just been called "malevolent", "nasty" and "envious" amongst other things for expressing what amounts to not even a contrary view. This isn't some parky-esque anti-expansion show, its a relatively level headed thread taking a rather removed and objective view. That is to say, not all singing all dancing blind faith support but not unfounded doom mongering either. If it suits you to see it in such black and white terms I can only offer my sincere condolences as politics and daily life must be a nightmare for you.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It's the rules for an adult tour that they have a ratio of 2 adults to one child?

That seems odd? Do the RFL/Barla expect you to take your own child or do they provide one for you?

Ah so now we're onto nit picking to derail a thread, another classic move 

[langpark]

20 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

First langpark and now you have insisted that it is a failure of theirs to have not followed these rules, but it is 'nitpicking' to point out these rules dont apply to them as they are relevant to children.

I never said a failure of theirs.  I was just showing you the sort of work that goes into planning ONE trip, let alone 15 trips inside 5 weeks.

"Due diligence", by RFL terms, it seems is that entire list I sent you. 

I would love to see what euro 13's definition of "due diligence" is.  Perhaps Hela Wigmen can tell us, after he got put through that stringent process already.

[Yakstorm]

Whilst I do have plenty of concerns around things like funding and management of this competition, let's assume that Dean Buchan has deep pockets and is happy to underwrite the whole thing, and in addition pay the respective broadcasts costs for the games for a broadcaster to pick up (whilst no TV company would pay for this competition, plenty would take free content provided it is up to a certain broadcast standard) and that logistics, venues, insurance, referees is all covered, my question is, why are they over-extending themselves so much?

Where they could have just had one draft, they've announced at least four (US, UK, Australia, Italy) and based these across three-regions.

Where they could have settled on stronger clubs across Europe, they have picked a lot of clubs who have either not played in 12 months or are completely new / reformed such as:

• Dublin Blues - Reformed after years of no activity
• North Brussels Gorillas - No games for over 18 months,
• Budapest - No games for over 18 months
• Anadolu XIII - Brand new club
• Birmingham Jaguars - Brand new club

Throw in Valencia who only have one game to their name, that's 6 of the 10 clubs named with very few runs under their belt and with talk that 4 of the remaining spots will be filled with a new Italian club, and then teams from Portugal, Moldova and Austria, it is really adding some extra pressure which they could have minimised.

Same, where they could have left it at 8 teams and done something like played it over a week in a central location to keep costs down, etc, they doubled the number of entrants and it will have teams flying across the continent over four separate weekends.

And where they could have simply presented this to the RLEF and got sign off months ago, they went their round about way.

And just finally, where they could say 'this is big enough', they are still recruiting clubs and still looking to add a Women's competition to run in conjunction.

 

Now these are all hurdles which can be overcome, but wow, talking about adding pressure to one-self.  Considering where we are at with 'European Development' competitions, they could have still impressed everyone with a whole lot less and taken a bit more of a 'Minimal Viable Product' approach to it all.

Naturally, each to their own, and if Dean has opened up the cheque book, then he can arguably do with it whatever he wants, but this does feel a bit like what happens when you get too many excitable people in a room together brainstorming, and there is no one there to ask the question 'why would we do that?'.  T

I hope they can make it work, and that it doesn't turn into a logistical clusterf#!k in year one which kills it all off, but it will be hard work for them and I certainly hope Dean is going to put a few people full time on the payroll to help try and manage this, because they'll need it. 

[HarrogateKnights]

The problem is that in a way we need more competions/league structures. The NRL is a franchise and may take 1 possibly 2 more teams before it would have to reshape to add others.

To get to Super League, the Championship already has 14 the only way to increase this would be to scrap the playoffs and it could go to 16. Same with Super League. But with Ottawa joining next year and New York the year (in League 1) after them League 1 are already up to 13 teams at that point. Rhondda Outlaws & Dublin Blues could have been League 1 contenders with Valencia a potential other. 

Under the teams mentioned above it would leave a 16 team (no playoffs) Super League & Championship and a 12 team League 1. Leaving 4 spaces available for League 1 entry.

For arguments sake we take Birmingham, Rotterdam, North Brussels and Budapest and put them in League 1 with Rhondda, Dublin and Valencia to make the 16 teams in each of the 3 Leagues. There would be still a further 7 teams in the Euro 13s plus teams that haven't been considered from Greece & Serbia amongst other places. 

Although the Euro 13s in principle is a good idea, we have to be realistic, we don't know the standard of the teams involved however I would argue that the NCL can deliver better rugby league than League 1 on its day so it will have its challenges to begin with. 

I am not saying either that I agree to increasing all 3 leagues (Super League, Championship and League 1) to 16 teams as would weaken the comps if anything but realistically, there is probably 1 more spot in League 1 after New Yorks entry presuming that all teams survive after COVID-19. That would leave 12-14-14 and with the feedback Red Star Belgrade were getting I wouldn't be surprised if it was them for that final spot. That would leave a 1 in 1 out licencing rule for future. So if you want into the RFL get buying a licence like they did at Hemel. 

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

First langpark and now you have insisted that it is a failure of theirs to have not followed these rules, but it is 'nitpicking' to point out these rules dont apply to them as they are relevant to children. 

And because your attempts to patronize because 'it seemed rather obvious' to you were proven misplaced it becomes an attempt to derail the thread. 

I think the other one has bells on if you want to pull it.

And all other (in your view) non valid criticisms? Any thoughts on Lignano as a draft venue? Or the inclusion of an English team which in any of its incarnations has never played a senior mens fixture? Or the how two tier draft players work in this cup comp? I ask that on a personal level as I'm of age and skill that I might like to try out but thus far see no logic to it.

Make this and us and them between people who support RL expansion and you're dividing a rather small slice of an already small pie. 

[Tommygilf]

5 hours ago, Yakstorm said:

Naturally, each to their own, and if Dean has opened up the cheque book, then he can arguably do with it whatever he wants, but this does feel a bit like what happens when you get too many excitable people in a room together brainstorming, and there is no one there to ask the question 'why would we do that?'

Top post mate which articulates a lot of my thoughts.

I quoted this bit because I agree totally. It seems like a lot of yes men have been party to planning this and nobody said no, hence why it has changed so much and seems confused to outsiders on these issues - professionalism, draft purpose, competition structure, aims of competition, profile, clubs included, tournament governance and disciplinary etc.. On social media it seems like this has produced an defensive and ###### response to any and all questions - a real case of how to lose friends and alienate people.

[Eddie]

Maybe we’re all going to have to agree to disagree on this one, after 33 pages of nobody changing their mind. 
 

Anyway I have complete respect for all of your opinions, especially those who have organised RL clubs themselves, and I’m loving the ride and can’t wait to see how it pans out. As most people have said, if this crazy plan comes off it will be superb. 

[Impartial Observer]

32 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Maybe we’re all going to have to agree to disagree on this one, after 33 pages of nobody changing their mind. 
 

 

I am amazed that after this many pages there hasn't been any major personal insults or no posts deleted. It shows there can be a healthy debate among like minded people.   

[17 stone giant]

11 hours ago, Eddie said:

I’ve just realised you think I’m Dean Buchan

 

I thought you were Eddie Jones.

[Hela Wigmen]

9 hours ago, langpark said:

I never said a failure of theirs.  I was just showing you the sort of work that goes into planning ONE trip, let alone 15 trips inside 5 weeks.

"Due diligence", by RFL terms, it seems is that entire list I sent you. 

I would love to see what euro 13's definition of "due diligence" is.  Perhaps Hela Wigmen can tell us, after he got put through that stringent process already.

What due diligence? I asked various questions about a myriad of subjects and was met with very few answers, much like Buchan’s interviews with the press.

The application form sent to me looked like GCSE homework, at best. 

[langpark]

3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

What due diligence? I asked various questions about a myriad of subjects and was met with very few answers, much like Buchan’s interviews with the press.

The application form sent to me looked like GCSE homework, at best. 

Precisely!

[yanto]

33 minutes ago, Impartial Observer said:

I am amazed that after this many pages there hasn't been any major personal insults or no posts deleted. It shows there can be a healthy debate among like minded people.   

Just because Im to polite to tell Scotchy 1 and Eddie to **** *** 

[Tommygilf]

13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I dont believe there are many valid criticism put forth on here no.

There are just a lot of people who for some reason have a real bee in their bonnet that they havent provided them personally with huge volumes of proprietary information.

That's untrue, as most have recognised there are clearly issues that are not self evident in explanation by themselves with this project. That's not huge proprietary information. Indeed the RLEF seems equally concerned, further raising questions.

18 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I have no issues with lignano as a venue, I have no issues with a new english team being admitted, no issues with the draft system.

No issues whatsoever with Lignano as a draft venue? Are you sure? Alongside Brisbane, Australia?

The new English team isn't even recognised by the RFL and the active RL expansionists on the grounds have major doubts about it - not least that it comes from a club who have never fielded a men's team and is fronted by a bloke who has set up now 4 teams that are all just rebrands of the same club. Doing my homework on some of these clubs and it seems like benefit of the doubt is being very generous.

Again, you see no problem at all with draft system that includes perhaps the biggest RL hotbed in the world in Brisbane, and 3 places where there has never been even a semi-professional team and where amateur club presence has been intermittent or at best pretty embryonic to say the least? You see no issue there whatsoever? No contradiction at all?

30 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Them and us requires both them and us. We should welcome innovation, risk taking and ambition in to our game

Would you have said the same about World Rugby League I wonder?

[Impartial Observer]

32 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It isnt the sort of thing that is necessary at all because, they arent children.

Also hela wigman didnt go through due diligence, they followed up an expression of interest with an application form (though I'm not sure he isnt lying about that)

The tour protocols for DBS and safeguarding apply to Under 18s as they can play adult rugby at 16 and vulnerable adults.

 

Maybe hela wigman should post the applicationf orm on here as he is being accused of lying.

 

[JonM]

15 hours ago, Eddie said:

Agreed entirely. I just don’t understand why so many people are getting vexed about it, it’s not like anyone is getting forced to participate and if you don’t like it then don’t watch, it’s as simple as that?

I think the concern is that there are already so many red flashing lights pointing to this being a failure and the worry is that this would have a serious knock-on effect on fairly small RL organisations in quite a few countries around Europe that have been painstakingly built up over the last few years.

The RLEF was in the process of putting together its own European club competition, as mentioned here:

https://rugbyleaguehub.com/2020/04/06/leagues/irl/red-star-belgrade-abandon-league-1-bid-aim-for-new-pan-european-comp/

Having an alternative competition that seems to lack much concrete planning and any obvious financial backing and which is run by someone who appears to have alienated many people who've been active in RL development for many years, doesn't seem like a great thing. I hope it's a great success and Mr. Buchan proves me utterly wrong.

[Impartial Observer]

[JonM]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Again, you see no problem at all with draft system that includes perhaps the biggest RL hotbed in the world in Brisbane, and 3 places where there has never been even a semi-professional team and where amateur club presence has been intermittent or at best pretty embryonic to say the least? You see no issue there whatsoever? No contradiction at all?

I assume the draft in those locations won't need to involve local players being drafted, or any players physically present. It could just be a press conference with clubs and player names being announced, filmed for social media and maybe to get a bit of local media coverage in those places. Not sure why you're persisting with trying to have a sensible conversation with him.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, JonM said:

I assume the draft in those locations won't need to involve local players being drafted, or any players physically present. It could just be a press conference with clubs and player names being announced, filmed for social media and maybe to get a bit of local media coverage in those places. Not sure why you're persisting with trying to have a sensible conversation with him.

We assume that's sensible but then we hear Atlanta is a place for North American tryouts. Just doesn't add up to me. 

Also agreed, I guess I am very bored haha