Euro XIIIs

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Impartial Observer said:

I am amazed that after this many pages there hasn't been any major personal insults or no posts deleted. It shows there can be a healthy debate among like minded people.   

That’s what I like about this forum, and is the reason why it’s the only social media I engage with. 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Impartial Observer said:

<snip>

That is pretty outright in questioning the legitimacy and authority of the RLEF and every member League it has under it to run the game in Europe, no? Basically saying - "work with us and drop your own plans and regardless don't get in our way or else". The balls on this guy to so openly challenge the regional governing body like that. Again the question of simple things like referees and player insurance comes up again.

I don't see how the RLEF's stated ambition of a more professional competition going ahead affects whether the "development league" EuroXIIIs can share their details with them? Its an amateur European rugby league competition what possible major secrets can they be holding? 

[yanto]

14 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I dont believe there are many valid criticism put forth on here no.

There are just a lot of people who for some reason have a real bee in their bonnet that they havent provided them personally with huge volumes of proprietary information.

.

As a genuine applicant I think a few of my points are valid. I am also not sure they are criticism either, just questions fired about on a rugby league forum from interested rugby league people.

I have been in contact with Buchan as I have said before  ,I had a club very interested in being part of this. 

My initial contact got no reply .So I sent him more information regarding my groups interest,the background of the club ,playing strength,backroom structure and the financial commitment we were willing to put up.Also the experience within the group both at running a club,organising fixtures,transport,hotels etc etc  with incoming and outgoing teams and developing the game .

I thought we would be an ideal club he would be looking to attract.

 I then recieved an email claiming he had not recieved my first contact which I found strange  but ok maybe he had'nt.

Enclosed was the standard PDF promo and form to be completed to ENTER the competition .YES ENTER not an expression of interest but to acctually commit the club. I was informed the closing date was on the Monday.He then sent me two other emails pushing us to get the application in on time as he had loads of clubs waiting in the wings. No argument with that apart from it seemed a high pressure sales tactic.

Before committing we felt we needed more information which he would not or could not give us.

After failing to get answers that we thought were important in making the decision whether to move forward with this , we decided as a group, not to proceed.It was all to vauge .I told Buchan we would like to observe how the competition unfolded,wished him success and would look at it again in the furture.

His blunt reply "was thank you for you interest and wishes but your to late I told you the closing day for applications was yesterday."  BANG end of contact despite replying to him .

Dropped like a hot potatoe.

The closing  date was not actually true as we had still 24 hours to get the application in according to his previous emails.

The guy has a very good  sales pitch,is very very enthusiastic in what he is doing but I am sure his refusal to provide more details to clubs and NGB's and even the RLEF has maybe stopped some of the better organised teams in ability structure and finance supporting this and giving him what would maybe be a higher level and more stable competition and the support of all the European RL community.

 Having dicussed this with other teams, that have been announced, honest mate they are still unsure what they have actually signed up  to and like us on here are waiting for clearer details of how all this will work.

I still can not get my head around why clubs ,some ran by more than capable level headed guys, have signed up for this without knowing what the costs or even the benefits will be .

My question is why is he being so secretive about all of this when he seems to be the type of guy ,that has in the past, been willing to announce all his plans to the world ?? 

Saints v Salford in Valencia,League One application,Featherstone v Valencia 

Its a strange way to work in my opinion.

 

[langpark]

44 minutes ago, Impartial Observer said:

This HAS to be a practical joke!

You want them to endorse something, THEN find out what it is later? In what world does this make sense!?

It would be like a real estate asking potential buyers to buy the house, and THEN after they have bought it, they get to take a look inside.

Eddie, please. Is none of this starting to look even slightly suspicious to you!?

[yanto]

55 minutes ago, Impartial Observer said:

I guess that is is response to the RLEF statement that TRL did not show in full yesterday .Looks like its gonna be a bun fight  

People still dont believe there is a damaging split in the game heading our way !!!!!!

You show me yours first ,no you show me yours  

He aint even sharing information with clubs that have signed up never mind the RLEF !!!!!!!

 

The RLEF provides the following update to members.

Following our initial meeting with the organisers of Euro XIII, the RLEF requested specific detailed information on its proposal of a club competition.

This included information on the ownership structure of Euro XIII, financial investment sources to underwrite the tournament and costs to be covered by clubs entering the competition.

 

Unfortunately, the RLEF is yet to receive the specific and confirmed details. Without this information, the Board of RLEF cannot make a proper assessment of the competition or potential relationshipwith Euro XIII.

 

As such, the RLEF can confirm that it has no formal relationship with Euro XIII at this moment in time and is not providing any form of endorsement of the proposed competition.

 

The RLEF will make further efforts for a short period to work with Euro XIII to establish the required information before establishing its final position.

 

The RLEF recognises that under its Articles, they have no powers to stop the Euro X111 from proceeding, if that was a desired option.

 

The RLEF continues with its own plans for a professional club competition in Europe. We are continuing to hold discussions with a variety of potential 

investors and developing further detailed plans, which we will share with members in the future.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

It is proprietary information. You have no involvement and as of right now they don't want anything from you, for whose benefit would that information be shared?

Yes no issues with lignano, why would there be?

And yes, no issues with a new english team. By definition a new team isnt going to be recognised by the RFL. 

Theres a long time poster on here who has already answered questions regarding that club. That is far more than we are actually entitled to but still isnt enough. 

World RL was something completely different. There is no parallel to be drawn.

I have no idea if this will be a success or not but literally none of the complaints you have mentioned here seem like determining factors

Fine, whatever you say. Have a look at Yanto's experience and tell me honestly that you feel full of confidence having read it.

[langpark]

2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It is proprietary information. You have no involvement and as of right now they don't want anything from you, for whose benefit would that information be shared?

One of the roots of the main problem of this entire project is that they seem to be feigning an interest in working with RLEF where as their actions so far suggest the opposite.

If they came out from the start and declared that, then at least everyone would know where they stood. RLEF it seems, is the bait that they used to initially reel in the fish. 

I expect they will continue to play this odd game of fence-sitting until all 16 spots have been filled.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Neither more, nor less confident.

But it seems the group think on here has spoken. Failure with catastrophic repercussions.

None of us can stop it so lets just sit back and watch the disaster unfold

If that is your takeaway I really do worry for where you base your contributions from. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Or, you know, they dont want to share their business plans, contacts, sponsors etc with an organisation that may create a rival competition. 

How can they be rivals if EuroXIIIs is an amateur development competition and the RLEF is the overarching body for RL in the northern hemisphere with aspirations for a professional competition? 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Because there would obviously be a lot of crossover. 

But, but, the EuroXIIIs guys have continuously said they have a different plan to the RLEF and don't want to impede them???

[yanto]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It is proprietary information. You have no involvement and as of right now they don't want anything from you, for whose benefit would that information be shared?

 

Ok an outsider Mr X comes into your office and offer the workers some ouside work .

Your boss wants to discuss with Mr X what its all about.

Mr X refuses to disclose his intentions but still encourages the guys in the office to take up his offer.

Mr X then ask your boss to disclose his intentions towards him then he will tell him his secrets.

In the mean time the office staff are signing up for Mr X without a clue what is going on and still want your boss to pay them .

How would your company react ???

So the clubs are signing up for Euro XIII without discussing it with the RLEF who have paid for all kinds of their development over the years and will continue to do so (as in pay in the above scinario), and have agreed to the RLEF constitution and expect no comebacks for aligning with a competition that  will not disclose its intentions.

This is not going to end well .

[Tommygilf]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

And that is also possible.

Those things clearly arent mutually exclusive.

You literally just said there would be a lot of crossover and would see the RLEF as a rival competition...

[yanto]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Or, you know, they dont want to share their business plans, contacts, sponsors etc with an organisation that may create a rival competition. 

That also happens to be the governing body of some of the clubs that have aligned with Euro XIII . The governing body who has assisted in finance and kind to get these clubs to where they are today .The governing body who these clubs through their NGB have have agreed to the constitution .

It also happens to be the governing body that has secured EU grants to pay for all the devlopment of these clubs yet some guy who has staged one game in Valencia and failed on two previous projects is now dangling a carrot at the same clubs without giving full disclosure to what the new Euro XIII is actually all about to the governing body and  these same clubs and you still think everything he is doing is above board and for the benfit of the game ??

 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes, when there is crossover that be both competitive, complimentary, or a mixture of both.

Leeds and wigan both have RL clubs, those business do not impede each other. In fact they have a somewhat symbiotic relationship, do you think that GH is completely opening his books, disclosing all his contacts, relationship, etc with Ian Lenagan?

What a silly comparison that totally ignores the point made

[yanto]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Thats your opinion. I dont think we have close to enough information to be making predictions like that. 

Maybe I am reading the press release wrong and the announcements he is making wrong.

Sorry pal maybe I have it all wrong.

Yep as you say its just an opinion but a similar scinario would you not agree...a little...sort off .

[Tommygilf]

Just now, yanto said:

Maybe I am reading the press release wrong and the announcements he is making wrong.

Sorry pal maybe I have it all wrong.

Yep as you say its just an opinion but a similar scinario would you not agree...a little...sort off .

Maybe you dreamed all your interactions with him 

[yanto]

12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Yes, when there is crossover that be both competitive, complimentary, or a mixture of both.

Leeds and wigan both have RL clubs, those business do not impede each other. In fact they have a somewhat symbiotic relationship, do you think that GH is completely opening his books, disclosing all his contacts, relationship, etc with Ian Lenagan?

But they both have to disclose their books and finance to the governing body .

[langpark]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

It doesnt ignore the point. It answers it.

Like leeds and Wigan, things can be complimentary but still require a distance. 

What"s with the Leeds-Wigan comparison. Leeds never publicly declared they want to collaborate with Wigan. Euro xiii are supposedly wanting to work with RLEF. 

[fighting irish]

13 hours ago, del capo said:

So far off the mark

If they can analyse the detail  then most existing set up 's will more than  be supportive  of this venture

 And your history Fighting Irish of turning RL sides out for a full 20 week season in the last 3 years ?

Should'nt be getting fed  up of key board warriors on this forum - my apologies please keep it coming....

 

Thought not .....

I'd be happy to respond to this Del Capo, its just that I haven't got a clue what you're talking about? Can you please re-phrase it for me?

[Tommygilf]

25 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It doesnt ignore the point. It answers it.

Like leeds and Wigan, things can be complimentary but still require a distance. 

Leeds aren't setting up a competition with a different team from Wigan involved and telling Wigan they can't know anything about it until they commit to getting involved. Even in 1895 the clubs at least knew what the plan, purpose and finance was.

[Impartial Observer]

22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

What's the problem here?

It is a bit like going on Dragon's Den asking for a load of money and when they ask what is the money for saying I will tell you when you give me the money. 

[yanto]

36 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

And within the constitution of the RLEF these clubs are entitled to do what they are doing. 

What's the problem?

Correct but ONLY if the NGB give permission and sign off outgoing and incoming teams from other countries.

Its the NGB that that are members of the RLEF and the clubs aligned through their NGB.As I stated but you seem to have misread.

Now Buchan is holding back on disclosure with the RLEF has he made official contact with the Swedish,Irish,Welsh,Belgian,Italian,Spanish ..oh he is Spain, Turkish ,RFL,Dutch national bodies to see if they will sign of teams to play.

I would call it protocol, courtesy and politness or has he left that to the clubs to put it to their domestic governing bodies on the back of what he has promised so far ??

Just asking for a firend

[fighting irish]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I've disagreed with many posters on here about all sorts of issues, not least expansion which I have vehemently and consistently supported. But not once have I ever accused someone I disagree with, not even Parky, of malevolence towards the game. If you think that you should report the poster and they should be banned as they do not belong on a rugby league forum.

The ironic thing is not one person on this thread has wished the competition ill fortune. Yourself and others have hastily tried to clamp down on any intelligent critique as negative and now "malevolent", "indolent" and "nasty". However, as far as I can see people associated with varying levels, but almost universally positive experiences, of expansion are looking at this venture with healthy scepticism because we very much would like something akin to this competition to succeed.

As far as the RL community goes, we should be the easier one's to win over - yet for daring to question the rather obvious gaps in logic, aims, strategy and purpose of this competition we are now pariahs? 101 in how to lose friends and alienate people there mate.

I'm failing miserably here, with you Tom. First of all let me say that my comments were not directed to you.

Furthermore, the malevolence I speak of is not towards the game, although I've experienced a lot of that, in my life.

The malevolence I refer to is directed at Mr Buchan, Mr Perez, Mr Argyle et al, for daring to do something novel, something unexpected (for the good of the game as it happens) and backing their ideas with their own resources.

If they'd come cap in hand, and begged for permission they'd have received a better welcome, I'm confident of that.

The root of this malevolence, is envy, which sadly is the most common emotion on the planet. That's why I'm not surprised by it.

It goes almost undetected amongst the envious but its ugly, hateful and wrong.

Why is it wrong? because it vilifies people, not for their vices but for their virtues. They are despised not for their shortcomings but for their qualities,  in short, because they are good. And I abhor it wherever I see it. What kind of society are we creating when its permissible to punish the virtuous?

Regarding your last point. Asking questions is fine, but I think its reasonable to expect people to defer judgement until the information becomes available rather than jump to wholly unsubstantiated (negative) conclusions about the man, his brainchild and his efforts beforehand.

The majority of the pre-judgements can be classed as negative, many employing ridicule and its simply unjust, so I'm standing up for them, until the evidence is in.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, because I admire them and their ilk. I hope there's lots more to come. 

[del capo]

51 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I'd be happy to respond to this Del Capo, its just that I haven't got a clue what you're talking about? Can you please re-phrase it for me?

Sorry for the late reply  Irish but for some reason  I got hacked and John Drake has only just been able to get me back on.

Very strange for a forum like this ?

My comment is now perhaps superfluous as  many seem already to have  shot your diatribe  of 14 hours ago down

[Impartial Observer]

31 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

 

The malevolence I refer to is directed at Mr Buchan, Mr Perez, Mr Argyle et al, for daring to do something novel, something unexpected (for the good of the game as it happens) and backing their ideas with their own resources.

I

Eric Perez seems to be just a frontman for people with money, I think you will find that if he does have any money he hasn't used it with Toronto where he was relieved of his duties and Ottawa. Argyle appears to have money not sure about Buchan.