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Yeomanslad

Draft system

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I’ve suggested this before but the easiest way to bring a draft system into SL is through imports. SL keeps £600k of each clubs money goes out and signs 12 imports on £200k. 24 on £150k and 12 on £100k. Obviously they can do whatever Price mix that suits. These can then be drafted with bottom of table getting first pick. There would be issues with players switching sides too much. That can be fixed by either doing 2/3 year draft cycles or if a team/player doesn’t want to move there could be an agreed buy out for each price bracket. 

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25 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Can you give me some good reasons why a player at Wigan St Pats at 11-14 should stay there through to 18, where the facilities are poorer than those at Super League level and where coaching is poorer than Super League level, instead of going through the current system that we have in place now?

I'm not too fussed about a 14 year boy. I'm more concerned about the game as a whole and pros and cons a draft system would have in enhancing it.

I guess some reasons would be staying close to home, playing with your best mates, representing your home town/suburb, focusing on school and just being a general kid.

You do realise that every single NFL, NBA, MLB, AFL team don't have any kind of academy or junior development systems? Every kid 18 and under plays for their local amateur team or high school where the facilities and coaches are poorer that the professional system. All those leagues seems to be doing a little better than Super League.

Again, I'm not entirely convinced however I'm not blind to the positives it could have not just our sport but alot of sports.

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Just now, AB90 said:

I'm not too fussed about a 14 year boy. I'm more concerned about the game as a whole and pros and cons a draft system would have in enhancing it.

I guess some reasons would be staying close to home, playing with your best mates, representing your home town/suburb, focusing on school and just being a general kid.

You do realise that every single NFL, NBA, MLB, AFL team don't have any kind of academy or junior development systems? Every kid 18 and under plays for their local amateur team or high school where the facilities and coaches are poorer that the professional system. All those leagues seems to be doing a little better than Super League.

Again, I'm not entirely convinced however I'm not blind to the positives it could have not just our sport but alot of sports.

So you don’t care about the development of kids but you’re going to talk about it anyway? Let’s not bother with this conversation then. 

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1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

So you don’t care about the development of kids but you’re going to talk about it anyway? Let’s not bother with this conversation then. 

If thats what you take away from that, so be it.

Pros and cons in all systems and ideas. You are probably correct in suggesting that this may be a 'con' of having a draft system. 

The question is, do the positives outweigh the negatives. 

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6 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Can you give me some good reasons why a player at Wigan St Pats at 11-14 should stay there through to 18, where the facilities are poorer than those at Super League level and where coaching is poorer than Super League level, instead of going through the current system that we have in place now?

The first move by Michael Maguire and Ian Lenegan  when he bought Wigan  was to visit St Pats,  check on their player production systems and sign up their best coaches. Lots of  amateur clubs had the same  visits - please don't insult their efforts. their facilities or their coaching levels.  The current GB coach Shaun Wane  for instance was kept in the game and nurtured by coach Jackie  Melling at the Pats.

At nil cost to the game. Now we have a whole industry based around Scholarships and Academies. At great cost. It was never needed.

Please point me out a superstar from the 'New age' to match anything the amateur clubs have not had a hand in.....

But in the meantime please be happy to swill 2 million + down the drain each year

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11 hours ago, del capo said:

The first move by Michael Maguire and Ian Lenegan  when he bought Wigan  was to visit St Pats,  check on their player production systems and sign up their best coaches. Lots of  amateur clubs had the same  visits - please don't insult their efforts. their facilities or their coaching levels.  The current GB coach Shaun Wane  for instance was kept in the game and nurtured by coach Jackie  Melling at the Pats.

At nil cost to the game. Now we have a whole industry based around Scholarships and Academies. At great cost. It was never needed.

Please point me out a superstar from the 'New age' to match anything the amateur clubs have not had a hand in.....

But in the meantime please be happy to swill 2 million + down the drain each year

So you haven’t actually given a reason why a player is better staying at an amateur club to 18 in comparison to going through the system at Wigan as it is, which is continually churning out player after player. Would these players be at the same level with another 2-4 years at an amateur club? 

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1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

So you haven’t actually given a reason why a player is better staying at an amateur club to 18 in comparison to going through the system at Wigan as it is, which is continually churning out player after player. Would these players be at the same level with another 2-4 years at an amateur club? 

That's negative of a draft system - agreed.

Do you want to discuss and consider the potential positives? Like evening out the playing field in access to junior talent, evening out the competition, centralised funding for juniors, increased media attention, reducing club expenditure (no academies)

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1 hour ago, AB90 said:

That's negative of a draft system - agreed.

Do you want to discuss and consider the potential positives? Like evening out the playing field in access to junior talent, evening out the competition, centralised funding for juniors, increased media attention, reducing club expenditure (no academies)

The clubs with better academies are never going to agree to it and nor should they. 

 

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1 hour ago, AB90 said:

That's negative of a draft system - agreed.

Do you want to discuss and consider the potential positives? Like evening out the playing field in access to junior talent, evening out the competition, centralised funding for juniors, increased media attention, reducing club expenditure (no academies)

Cut out Overloading youngsters with false hope & sometimes false promises. Keep them as Junior Amatuers so as to strengthen that community game. Once they go to an academy and get let down / fail to get a proper gig on graduation, they seldom return to the amateur game, and when they do it's without the same attendence levels at training and the same level of enthusiasm. 

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3 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

So you haven’t actually given a reason why a player is better staying at an amateur club to 18 in comparison to going through the system at Wigan as it is, which is continually churning out player after player. Would these players be at the same level with another 2-4 years at an amateur club? 

You have not answered my questions.

 Show me a super league super star  from the Academy system who has not learned his skills beforehand in the Community game.

And at the same time justify spending  £ 2 million each year when the Community game did it for free.

 You mention Wigan and their 'churn out ' of players.  Jackie Roden  Matty Peet and Mick Cassidy are the backbone of their youth efforts . All from  St Pats.. The skill is to assess the lad and not let him down afterwords. And whatever skills/ knowledge that  exist within the pro game should be percolated down. Far cheaper and more effective to save us

Yes some players always  needed to leave  early for pastures new. Shaun Edwards  and Phil Clarke  at St Pats spring to mind  but others like the two Gregory's and Joe Lydon played it through to  the point of open age - you convinced 18 month in the Academy system would have made them any better ?

And it's not just St Pat's. We have 300 community clubs producing players without which the game will be gone......

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9 minutes ago, del capo said:

You have not answered my questions.

 Show me a super league super star  from the Academy system who has not learned his skills beforehand in the Community game.

And at the same time justify spending  £ 2 million each year when the Community game did it for free.

 You mention Wigan and their 'churn out ' of players.  Jackie Roden  Matty Peet and Mick Cassidy are the backbone of their youth efforts . All from  St Pats.. The skill is to assess the lad and not let him down afterwords. And whatever skills/ knowledge that  exist within the pro game should be percolated down. Far cheaper and more effective to save us

Yes some players always  needed to leave  early for pastures new. Shaun Edwards  and Phil Clarke  at St Pats spring to mind  but others like the two Gregory's and Joe Lydon played it through to  the point of open age - you convinced 18 month in the Academy system would have made them any better ?

And it's not just St Pat's. We have 300 community clubs producing players without which the game will be gone......

You don’t have a point. All Super League club players have come through community clubs. They likely always will. However, you have not addressed the question regarding whether these players are actually better off staying at a community club, where the facilities and coaching is of a lower standard than that of Super League Academies, for an additional 2-4 years compared with the current system that sees them join Super League clubs at a younger age. 

If you genuinely believe that a player is better off at a Wigan St Pats than they are joining Wigan Warriors, I’m baffled. 

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7 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You don’t have a point. All Super League club players have come through community clubs. They likely always will. However, you have not addressed the question regarding whether these players are actually better off staying at a community club, where the facilities and coaching is of a lower standard than that of Super League Academies, for an additional 2-4 years compared with the current system that sees them join Super League clubs at a younger age. 

If you genuinely believe that a player is better off at a Wigan St Pats than they are joining Wigan Warriors, I’m baffled. 

Then let me try to unlock your bafflement

Super  league have spent in excess of £40 million on  the Academy project.  Simply to replicate  for free what they already had on their doorsteps. And the result -- back to my as yet unanswered questions Hela.

And bye the way the Wigan team at their  very best were made up 2/3 of of non Academy locals in the 80.s and 90's- clearly the result of ###### facilities and coaching at local club level. Even today half the  current Wigan squad are Wiganers

 Scholarship and Academy. It's just a bad business model. Invest below and the grapes will be ready to harvest...

 

 

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5 minutes ago, del capo said:

Then let me try to unlock your bafflement

Super  league have spent in excess of £40 million on  the Academy project.  Simply to replicate  for free what they already had on their doorsteps. And the result -- back to my as yet unanswered questions Hela.

And bye the way the Wigan team at their  very best were made up 2/3 of of non Academy locals in the 80.s and 90's- clearly the result of ###### facilities and coaching at local club level. Even today half the  current Wigan squad are Wiganers

 Scholarship and Academy. It's just a bad business model. Invest below and the grapes will be ready to harvest...

 

 

What unanswered questions? 

The Super League clubs are not replicating what is on their doorsteps. If you’re telling me Wigan model themselves on a series of amateur clubs, you’re deluded.

Wigan (and others) currently take players, put them into an environment with better facilities (that’s pitches, recovery aids, gyms, analytics etc) and better coaching and aid their development and potential. You are yet to put together an argument where you are proving that players would be better served staying at an amateur club to 18-20 years of age than going through the current system, that sees them join clubs at scholarship level (14-16) and progress that way through the Academy and potentially on to the new Reserves League and First Team. 

You’re argument is a couple of players from between 25-30 years ago. It’s as flimsy an argument as a sheet of paper. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

What unanswered questions? 

The Super League clubs are not replicating what is on their doorsteps. If you’re telling me Wigan model themselves on a series of amateur clubs, you’re deluded.

Wigan (and others) currently take players, put them into an environment with better facilities (that’s pitches, recovery aids, gyms, analytics etc) and better coaching and aid their development and potential. You are yet to put together an argument where you are proving that players would be better served staying at an amateur club to 18-20 years of age than going through the current system, that sees them join clubs at scholarship level (14-16) and progress that way through the Academy and potentially on to the new Reserves League and First Team. 

You’re argument is a couple of players from between 25-30 years ago. It’s as flimsy an argument as a sheet of paper. 

 

Scroll up and you should find what I asked you..

Wigan and Leeds are  probably the best of the Academies. They both still  use amateur facilities. Their coaches are no different simply because they now get paid. I agree  their in house stuff is great  ( Wigan with the Clarke Brothers are world leaders ) but in the larger picture does that benefit the game as a whole ?   £40 million well spent over the last 20 years?

As for   your 25 years  jibe  let me give you Charnley  Tomkins and  Gildart currently on the field who all proudly wore their St Pats colours ..... before I even start to think about the rest....

 A

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7 minutes ago, del capo said:

Scroll up and you should find what I asked you..

Wigan and Leeds are  probably the best of the Academies. They both still  use amateur facilities. Their coaches are no different simply because they now get paid. I agree  their in house stuff is great  ( Wigan with the Clarke Brothers are world leaders ) but in the larger picture does that benefit the game as a whole ?   £40 million well spent over the last 20 years?

As for   your 25 years  jibe  let me give you Charnley  Tomkins and  Gildart currently on the field who all proudly wore their St Pats colours ..... before I even start to think about the rest....

 A

What Academy facilities do Wigan use?

£40m to good use? Well, if you look, historically, the clubs who have invested heavily into their Academy, your Wigan’s, Leeds’ and Saints have been the most successful on the field in terms of the league competition. I’d say, and I’m sure the clubs and their fans would agree, that it’s money well spent. You’re next crop of sides who’ve invested into their Academies, your Warrington’s and Hull’s have won Challenge Cup’s (and appeared in Grand Finals) and there’s been just four Cup finals since the new Wembley re-opened that either FC or Warrington have not been involved in. Again, I’m sure those clubs will argue that it’s money well spent. 

Internationally, the England Academy beat Australia in a series at the end of 2018. By my reckoning, many have gone on to make Super League debuts with Morgan Smithies already amongst the best forwards in the game, for example. Not bad results, either. 

As for the open age International side, a first World Cup Final in near on 20 years before a disastrous spell from a coach, that ended with a halfback on the wing and a winger drafted in to sit in the stands. 

We’ve seen plenty of players go over to The NRL and really show their class. Morley, Graham, Ellis, Burgess, Bateman, Whitehead and probably a few more  I’ve forgotten have gone over. It would be nice to see more of those names stay in Super League but that’s another issue.

What are you on about? I know Charnley and co have come from the amateur game. Most players will continue to come from those routes. You’ll get “odd” ones like Alex Walmsley who come from other routes but the majority will come through clubs with Academies? 

You’re not providing any evidence or reasoning behind your opinion that we should move to a bizarre draft system other than quoting made up figures and saying that amateur clubs are creating these players. While amateur clubs find these players, it’s the better coaching and the access to better facilities that sees these players reach their potential and make it as rugby league players. No one has provided any evidence that these young men are better off at a lesser standard (because that’s what it is) for longer than the current system, where the majority join clubs at scholarship age and progress. 

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26 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

What Academy facilities do Wigan use?

£40m to good use? Well, if you look, historically, the clubs who have invested heavily into their Academy, your Wigan’s, Leeds’ and Saints have been the most successful on the field in terms of the league competition. I’d say, and I’m sure the clubs and their fans would agree, that it’s money well spent. You’re next crop of sides who’ve invested into their Academies, your Warrington’s and Hull’s have won Challenge Cup’s (and appeared in Grand Finals) and there’s been just four Cup finals since the new Wembley re-opened that either FC or Warrington have not been involved in. Again, I’m sure those clubs will argue that it’s money well spent. 

Internationally, the England Academy beat Australia in a series at the end of 2018. By my reckoning, many have gone on to make Super League debuts with Morgan Smithies already amongst the best forwards in the game, for example. Not bad results, either. 

As for the open age International side, a first World Cup Final in near on 20 years before a disastrous spell from a coach, that ended with a halfback on the wing and a winger drafted in to sit in the stands. 

We’ve seen plenty of players go over to The NRL and really show their class. Morley, Graham, Ellis, Burgess, Bateman, Whitehead and probably a few more  I’ve forgotten have gone over. It would be nice to see more of those names stay in Super League but that’s another issue.

What are you on about? I know Charnley and co have come from the amateur game. Most players will continue to come from those routes. You’ll get “odd” ones like Alex Walmsley who come from other routes but the majority will come through clubs with Academies? 

You’re not providing any evidence or reasoning behind your opinion that we should move to a bizarre draft system other than quoting made up figures and saying that amateur clubs are creating these players. While amateur clubs find these players, it’s the better coaching and the access to better facilities that sees these players reach their potential and make it as rugby league players. No one has provided any evidence that these young men are better off at a lesser standard (because that’s what it is) for longer than the current system, where the majority join clubs at scholarship age and progress. 

You  really don't get this do you

As for Wigan they have finally bought the  Arena next to the stadium and have centred all their efforts there.

All sports work on a pyramid system. The Scholarship and Academy would vanish  overnight but for the Community game producing players for them ,.  You mention Morgan Smithies who was in fact a superstar with Siddal before even getting anywhere  near Academy intake. Alex Walmesley came as an open age product  via the NCL.

The greater the width of the base of the pyramid the better the game will thrive. Could I have better used that £40 million spent on the Academies ? Certainly. We could easily have tripled the players at the bottom and the rewards would have been there,

Don.'t know where you're coming from on a draft  system debate - never been in that one

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7 hours ago, del capo said:

You  really don't get this do you

As for Wigan they have finally bought the  Arena next to the stadium and have centred all their efforts there.

All sports work on a pyramid system. The Scholarship and Academy would vanish  overnight but for the Community game producing players for them ,.  You mention Morgan Smithies who was in fact a superstar with Siddal before even getting anywhere  near Academy intake. Alex Walmesley came as an open age product  via the NCL.

The greater the width of the base of the pyramid the better the game will thrive. Could I have better used that £40 million spent on the Academies ? Certainly. We could easily have tripled the players at the bottom and the rewards would have been there,

Don.'t know where you're coming from on a draft  system debate - never been in that one

The Arena previously owned by Wigan Leisure & Culture Trust?

What are you on about? You’re talking utter rubbish. I haven’t said remove the amateur game, I have no idea where you’ve made that up. 

Your only argument is a more even spread of players across the game. Fair enough. I’d argue that isn’t a fair way to do things. 

I doubt you could have spent £40m wisely after reading the nonsense you’re posting on here. 

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1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

The Arena previously owned by Wigan Leisure & Culture Trust?

What are you on about? You’re talking utter rubbish. I haven’t said remove the amateur game, I have no idea where you’ve made that up. 

Your only argument is a more even spread of players across the game. Fair enough. I’d argue that isn’t a fair way to do things. 

I doubt you could have spent £40m wisely after reading the nonsense you’re posting on here. 

Yes that Arena. I believe  the  Lenegans still own The former Pemberton High School now called Central Park next door to Wigan St Cuthberts clubhouse. as well as the now effectively un -used stadium at Edge Hall Road  (Can't get planning permission  for housing  as there are access issues).  Wigan Hall in the town centre out of which the Clarke's run their sports empire is also in that portfolio but most activity is  now concentrated right next door to the DW Stadium.

I have not accused you of seeking to remove the amateur game.

I have not on this thread ever suggested a draft system .

I am open minded about elitism. In fact when I was more hands on at club level than now I was often accused of running the most elitist club of them all.

And as for that 40 million , I would have retained and extended the development officers structure and invested heavily in the Southern Conference to bring it up to NCL standards. That's what I am on about when I speak of a pyramid . Look after your base and widen it as much as you possibly can. The bigger the sea you fish in the better the  quantity AND quality of catch...

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