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scotchy1

Players should have a voice in the running of the game

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https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/players-deserve-voice-running-game-luke-gale-2862208

Interesting thoughts from Luke Gale. Seems perhaps those who were easily led by Chairmen speaking for players re the salary cap and restarting might have to rethink how benevolent their overlords really are.

The players should absolutely have a place at all of the top tables. They are the game far more than the chairmen. 

That the salary cap vote does not include a significant voice and vote for the players is an embarrassment to our game and  betrayal of our heritage.

Good on Gale for speaking out. 

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4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

That the salary cap vote does not include a significant voice and vote for the players is an embarrassment to our game and  betrayal of our heritage.

When I was planning the annual budget for 450 staff and a circa £20M salary bill, funnily enough I didn't start by asking them how much they all wanted.

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The players should absolutely have a place at all of the top tables. They are the game far more than the chairmen.

This is disingenuous. There may be some bad chairmen and I don't agree with their decisions all the time but many of them have poured an enormous amount of their time, and often a lot of their own money, into their clubs.

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9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

When I was planning the annual budget for 450 staff and a circa £20M salary bill, funnily enough I didn't start by asking them how much they all wanted.

This is disingenuous. There may be some bad chairmen and I don't agree with their decisions all the time but many of them have poured an enormous amount of their time, and often a lot of their own money, into their clubs.

You wouldn't negotiate with staff and their representatives on pay and award? Just throw it out there take it or leave it? Seems like you would lose a lot of good staff, fast.

It's not disingenuous at all. The players are the game far more than the Chairmen. They deserve voice in the big decisions that affect them.

 

Edited by scotchy1

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

You wouldn't negotiate with staff and their representatives on pay and award? Just throw it out their take it or leave it? Seems like you would lose a lot of good staff, fast.

No, I didn't negotiate with staff on pay and reward.  I did of course allow managers and leaders within the teams to decide who should get the most incremental reward based on ability, performance and attitude.

And I didn't lose people I wanted to keep.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

No, I didn't negotiate with staff on pay and reward.  I did of course allow managers and leaders within the teams to decide who should get the most incremental reward based on ability, performance and attitude.

And I didn't lose people I wanted to keep.

So you advocate that clubs should be able to pay what they deem necessary in this analogy?

You also miss the fact that this isnt a single business setting it's own budget. It's an industry setting a cap to depress the market value of workers and restrict earnings.

Your staff had the chance to test their value in an open market. Players dont.

You didnt lose staff because you paid them their open market rate. Clubs dont lose players because they created a cabal to stop them getting their market rate. 

If a salary cap is necessary, players should absolutely get a say in the setting of said cap. 

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I think there should be a decent minimum wage set for a 1st team contract that reflects the turnover/ profit of the club, dont really know what price you put on the effects to the body but i suppose thats the price to pay to be a pro Rl player.

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10 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

So you advocate that clubs should be able to pay what they deem necessary in this analogy?

No, quite opposite in fact.  If I set an overall budget then the managers had the freedom to reward people within that budget... some got increases and some didn't.  In this sense the analogy is that the clubs can choose who to reward based on an overall budget.

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Your staff had the chance to test their value in an open market. Players dont.

You didnt lose staff because you paid them their open market rate. Clubs dont lose players because they created a cabal to stop them getting their market rate. 

If a salary cap is necessary, players should absolutely get a say in the setting of said cap. 

Players can (and do) leave Super League to ply their trade elsewhere.

Look, I agree that the cap should be higher to allow well managed clubs to reward more and attract/keep talent in our game.  A simple inflationary increase since 2002 would see a budget of £3.1M per club.

But I don't see that there is value in allowing the players a say in how much the cap is.  Chairmen have to balance all of the factors when setting budgets whereas players don't have this view of the business and will be inherently bias towards looking for more for themselves.

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Just now, Dunbar said:

No, quite opposite in fact.  If I set an overall budget then the managers had the freedom to reward people within that budget... some got increases and some didn't.  In this sense the analogy is that the clubs can choose who to reward based on an overall budget.

Players can (and do) leave Super League to ply their trade elsewhere.

Look, I agree that the cap should be higher to allow well managed clubs to reward more and attract/keep talent in our game.  A simple inflationary increase since 2002 would see a budget of £3.1M per club.

But I don't see that there is value in allowing the players a say in how much the cap is.  Chairmen have to balance all of the factors when setting budgets whereas players don't have this view of the business and will be inherently bias towards looking for more for themselves.

But in your example clubs cannot set their own budget as you did and delegate the negation to individual areas because of the salary cap. 

Players can and do leave SL but that is irrelvant. An SL player cannot test his value on an open market because anti-market practices by a cabal of owners makes it impossible.

If players did have a voice then yes, they would demand more. It is in their interest to do so. Just as it is in the owners interests to demand less. It is naive in the extreme to think that the owners are paying as much as possible to players and have freely decided, in the absence of any player leverage or market forces, to altruistically set the cap at an absolutely fair (to the players) level and as such we should trust in them and give that power to them as some kind of benevolent dictator.

The fact is that your own opinion on what a fair level of salary cap is, undermines your opinion that the players dont need a voice.

You believe that the SC should be raised, that there should at least be inflationary linked increases, and yet these dont exist. The value of.the SC has fallen drastically over the 20 years of its existence in real terms, there is a.good chance now that a significant cut will be imposed on players and the simple fact is that the lack of player leverage to counter balance the power of the owners has left us with a salary cap you think is unfairly low. 

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3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/players-deserve-voice-running-game-luke-gale-2862208

Interesting thoughts from Luke Gale. Seems perhaps those who were easily led by Chairmen speaking for players re the salary cap and restarting might have to rethink how benevolent their overlords really are.

The players should absolutely have a place at all of the top tables. They are the game far more than the chairmen. 

That the salary cap vote does not include a significant voice and vote for the players is an embarrassment to our game and  betrayal of our heritage.

Good on Gale for speaking out. 

Perhaps some players need at do a Business and Management course along with one for accountancy, and understand the financial side of the game and what clubs can and can't afford and some need to do a players coaching course and do a refs course as some players don't appear to know the laws of the game.

Perhaps then and only then would i give the players a bigger say in the running of the game.

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2 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

Perhaps some players need at do a Business and Management course along with one for accountancy, and understand the financial side of the game and what clubs can and can't afford and some need to do a players coaching course and do a refs course as some players don't appear to know the laws of the game.

Perhaps then and only then would i give the players a bigger say in the running of the game.

Ahh so the players should just trust and defer to the owners and chairmen.

Who, of course, will, in am altruistic spasm, completely ignore their motivation to keep wages artificially low. 

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2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Ahh so the players should just trust and defer to the owners and chairmen.

Who, of course, will, in am altruistic spasm, completely ignore their motivation to keep wages artificially low. 

I'm sure if some players did a Business and Management course and an Accountancy course most clubs would let the them players look at the books.

The first rule of any successful business is that you can't have more going out than coming in.

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3 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

I'm sure if some players did a Business and Management course and an Accountancy course most clubs would let the them players look at the books.

The first rule of any successful business is that you can't have more going out than coming in.

Ahh so the players arent intelligent/educated enough to have a say

Edited by scotchy1

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Ahh so the players arent intelligent/educated enough to have a say

  Having a quick look at the Luke Gale piece it seems he wanted the players to discuss the restart.

  It may have been that the players would have been kept informed once the 3 options had been discussed,or about to be discussed,and the 'leak' to the press has brought about the comments as the players had not been involved,hitherto.

  Are you wanting the salary cap removed? If not,post-covid 19 what would you raise the cap to and,if there is the expected recession,how do you think it will be funded? 

  Should the players be asked to vote on the salary cap? 


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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3 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Hasn’t the Players Association been poorly supported by players every time it’s been run? 

You've hit the nail on the head there. What do the players really want going forward?

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14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Ahh so the players arent intelligent/educated enough to have a say

They are playing our game for their athletic ability, not their intelligence and it shows most times in their post match interviews

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8 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  Having a quick look at the Luke Gale piece it seems he wanted the players to discuss the restart.

  It may have been that the players would have been kept informed once the 3 options had been discussed,or about to be discussed,and the 'leak' to the press has brought about the comments as the players had not been involved,hitherto.

  Are you wanting the salary cap removed? If not,post-covid 19 what would you raise the cap to and,if there is the expected recession,how do you think it will be funded? 

  Should the players be asked to vote on the salary cap? 

I want the cap removed and replaced with a points system.

Gale is right. The players should have a say on the restart. 

Gale explains the communication or lack thereof

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2 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

They are playing our game for their athletic ability, not their intelligence and it shows most times in their post match interviews

Nonsense

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Just now, scotchy1 said:

Nonsense

There was me thinking that they played the game because of their athletic ability and now you tell me they don't. 

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If Luke Gale wants "a voice in running the game", or any other matter to do with his club, then he should go about it in the correct manner and not just give his own opinions via the media.

This is the problem with many aspects of life these days; people just want self publicity by putting forward their own views on any matter in the press (therefore hoping to get some public sympathy from those who haven't heard both sides of the argument) instead of first approaching those who are actually in charge of the situation.  Would Luke Gale like it if a chairman went to the press and made a complaint about his performances instead of approaching him personally ?

OK, this is Gale's opinion .... yet how do we know just how many players agree with him ?  Some might, others might not.  However, irrespective of what any of them think, they should not be going to the press with a comment about those who employ them.

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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10 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If Luke Gale wants "a voice in running the game", or any other matter to do with his club, then he should go about it in the correct manner and not just give his own opinions via the media.

This is the problem with many aspects of life these days; people just want self publicity by putting forward their own views on any matter in the press (therefore hoping to get some public sympathy from those who haven't heard both sides of the argument) instead of first approaching those who are actually in charge of the situation.  Would Luke Gale like it if a chairman went to the press and made a complaint about his performances instead of approaching him personally ?

OK, this is Gale's opinion .... yet how do we know just how many players agree with him ?  Some might, others might not.  However, irrespective of what any of them think, they should not be going to the press with a comment about those who employ them.

Well said, and i can't see anything in the Gale article to address the problems below that the game has. So i want to know how he would fix this.

How does Gale propose to get more money into game?

How does gale propose getting more fans through the gate?

How does Gale propose increasing the junior playing base?

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As an ex player I can categorically say that I didn’t want a say In the way that the sport was run. 
 

as a pro/ semi pro I wanted to satisfy myself that I was happy with the reward I was receiving for my time and talent... as an amateur I just wanted to enjoy the sport. 
 

if those two criteria weren’t satisfied I wouldn’t involve myself.
 

Over the fifty years I’ve been around Rugby League I’ve only met a couple of real quality business minded administrators, a few more people who have special expert skill (players, coaches, grounds keepers)...  occasionally players will move into becoming top quality coaches... and very very occasionally players will transition Into becoming good administrators. Hardly any have become entrepreneurs who buy and finance teams. 
 

so on balance I say let the current hierarchies remain... but encourage better education, consultation and collaboration... and maybe the landscape will change.
 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Hasn’t the Players Association been poorly supported by players every time it’s been run? 

Wasn't there an attempt to set up a players' association a couple of years ago? I believe it died of apathy.

I like the idea of players having their own independent input, but the players have to be properly committed to it in significant numbers, or they'll be ignored and deserve it.


"Men will be proud to say 'I am a European'. We hope to see a day when men of every country will think as much of being a European as of being from their native land." (Winston Churchill)

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6 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

Wasn't there an attempt to set up a players' association a couple of years ago? I believe it died of apathy.

I like the idea of players having their own independent input, but the players have to be properly committed to it in significant numbers, or they'll be ignored and deserve it.

There still is ..... https://twitter.com/rlpa13?lang=en

However the numbers of posts on this site appears it isn't used that often.

Edited by RL does what Sky says

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15 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I want the cap removed and replaced with a points system.

Gale is right. The players should have a say on the restart. 

Gale explains the communication or lack thereof

  I agree that there should always be more communication with the players - but not every consultation process should go through them.

  They need to have a very strong players union.Which is something Luke Gale could help with;as could his agent.

  However,even with that in place,and with regular dialogue,it doesn't mean that the current pandemic will result in more money for the sport,or more money for the players.

  Even the other code,with a far higher salary cap,are experiencing problems and a reduced financial position moving forward

  https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/23/wasps-chief-steven-vaughan-premiership-rugby-union-new-normal

  The financial hit on supporters and sponsors needs to be factored in.

   I do worry that more thought is going on trying to restart this year than is going on preparing and planning for the future and how the sport,and how it is laid out to develop the future players,is planned.

   Spending money on high-value players and,possibly,moulding them into a winning side is only an ephemeral pleasure and the future of the sport is more than that.  


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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