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5 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Oh right, so pointing out the facts is not an answer now? Gotcha

You weren’t pointing facts out. You couldn’t answer the question so decided to go round it.

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Of course that must be done, and the reason why it didn't happen with Fulham, Kent, Cardiff, Bridgend and the rest is that they lacked the necessary profile and stature to stimulate it in their markets unlike the Toronto Raptors who did have the necessary profile and stature to stimulate the growth of basketball in Canada.  Due to that profile and stature the Raptors also have plenty of money, so they can afford to help that growth financially although I don't know that they need to particularly because on the back of the profile and stature which the Raptors gave basketball here those involved in the non-professional game here can probably raise enough money on their own without having to look to the Raptors for money.

You make it sound as though the Raptors appeared out of thin air like the Wolfpack. You forget the Ontario Basketball Association with it's 80+ years of history building interest in the sport and creating demand for a pro team, which came in on proper foundations. 

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I think we often forget that the vast majority of Rugby Leagues expansion efforts have been badly funded. Pretty much all of the expansion attempts seen in the UK over the past 50 years have lacked the necessary investment necessary to keep it going long term. The sole reason expansion fails is the lack of money, it takes time to build interest, it takes money to buy time, Gateshead ran out of money after 1 season, Kent Invicta ran out of money after 1 season, Celtic Crusaders ran out of money pretty quickly too, but at least both them and Gateshead left something to carry on, even if that was limp along the bottom. Imagine what could have happened in South Wales for example if there had been serious investment. Now the real question is, why doesn’t Rugby League attract the necessary investment and, save for the odd individual, will it ever?

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Oh and by the way, my question about investment applies to heartland clubs too, what could we achieve in Oldham, or Barrow say, with the right investment, and why don’t we get it?

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1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

You make it sound as though the Raptors appeared out of thin air like the Wolfpack. You forget the Ontario Basketball Association with it's 80+ years of history building interest in the sport and creating demand for a pro team, which came in on proper foundations. 

ROFL.  I grew up in Ontario and I can tell you that before the Raptors came along basketball was a niche sport here.  I can't remember the last time I even heard of the Ontario Basketball Association.  So yes in a way the Raptors did appear out of thin air like the Wolfpack, because basketball was well below the radar here before they came along.

40 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

I think we often forget that the vast majority of Rugby Leagues expansion efforts have been badly funded. Pretty much all of the expansion attempts seen in the UK over the past 50 years have lacked the necessary investment necessary to keep it going long term. The sole reason expansion fails is the lack of money, it takes time to build interest, it takes money to buy time, Gateshead ran out of money after 1 season, Kent Invicta ran out of money after 1 season, Celtic Crusaders ran out of money pretty quickly too, but at least both them and Gateshead left something to carry on, even if that was limp along the bottom. Imagine what could have happened in South Wales for example if there had been serious investment. Now the real question is, why doesn’t Rugby League attract the necessary investment and, save for the odd individual, will it ever?

I can answer your question.  It's because (as you confirmed when I you asked about how it was seen when you lived on Tyneside) RL is seen as decidedly down-market over there.  According to a few posters on here who've interacted with outsiders trying to interest them in the game, most Brits don't even know that 2 versions of rugby exist and most of the remainder who do have a negative view of it because they've either heard or been told that it's just a small regional sport with limited interest.  The result is that the sort of investors the game needs are few and far between and those few can't get the support they need from the RFL because it lacks both the understanding of why that support is needed and the means to give it due to the game's weak financial foundation.

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6 hours ago, SL17 said:

You weren’t pointing facts out. You couldn’t answer the question so decided to go round it.

Aye ok. 

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16 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Evidence suggests that RL in Huddersfield is not working. (Not to pick on them especially) THE PUBLIC DON'T WANT IT IN SUITABLE NUMBERS. 

Or do we only apply these criteria for newer clubs? 

No you are very correct John, but the point of question was the club in London, or has I have put in a previous post and was qualified by someone who actually lives there the district that the club is operating in.

BUT the comparrison you make albeit a valid one with Huddesrfield is a problem  average attendance wise that London would love to have.

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12 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Actually as a parent who had his kids play sports with other Canadian kids, and listened to their parents I can assure you that they are not afraid of their kids playing rugby, in fact it’s football of the gridiron variety that’s under the microscope, mainly because of concussions but also because of bully coaches (a problem also endemic in junior hockey). The problem rugby faces is that for the kid who is also good at hockey his parents will push hard for him to choose hockey because 1. He might make the NHL and $$$$$ and 2. If he doesn’t make the NHL he has a great chance of a university scholarship in the 10’s of thousands of dollars. By contrast even RU here offers no career path to millions, and I can personally attest that the university scholarships don’t amount to more than $1000. 
The problem in NA is that for young athletes with talent, sport soon becomes a business. It’s all about getting the NCAA Div 1 scholarship, or getting on the path to the pros, it probably explains why so many talented athletes give up playing at age 22, they have completed their university degree, but didn’t get drafted to NFL/CFL/NBA/NHL/MLB so there’s nowhere to go. Again I know first hand.

Thank you for the answer Oldbear, I always listen to someone who has practical experience of any given situation.

 So would you say with the lack of the prospects of a future career in RL and big $$$$$ earnings eventuating, and most definatley No Chance whatsover of a University Scholership by participating in the sport in North America that it could/would be a reason for our sport albeit a practical if not a political one (and not a fear of injury as I suggested) by the parents of those it is nessacary to entice and attract to our game for it's future development, will that in your opinion hold back Rugby League from ever gaining a foothold amongst the natives?

 

 

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11 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Because RL is for a select few people in certain places in parts of the north. And they are entitled to any money generated in its name. 
 

It’s true 

It isn't though is it John? as RL does what Sky says points out he names 16 teams that are not in "certain places in the north" that have had the game introduced to them within their midst but chose not to accept it.

In my opinion for any team outside of those "certain places in the north" it needs to accomplish two things for the longevity of the game, a support base and an infrastructure/grassroots they need both to work.

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10 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Yes, but its the willingness to grasp the nettle and really spread the game in a genuine and authentic way, deeply embedding it in the communities, in huge numbers the really gets the job done.

Eventually, those numbers alone can sustain a pro' club on their own, making the game resilient to shocks and downturns.

This is the antithesis of being totally dependent on a single (perhaps fickle) benefactor for whom the club may be a mere plaything, or just a short term ego boost until the next ''big'' thing comes down the pipe.

All the other attempts, (Fulham, Kent, Cardiff, Bridgend, etc etc etc) decried here by the anti-expansion traditionalists have one thing in common, they failed to do this nitty gritty groundwork, planting the seeds of long term growth that really embed a game in their areas.

To repeat my comment to Big Picture, whatever else you do, you must do this.

Newcastle are showing how it ought to be done, London have some success and so do we, in  Wales, although its never mentioned on these boards.

You can't get something for nothing. 

Nail on head.

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10 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Why do you think soccer doesn’t/has never struggled for playing numbers? 

It's hardly struggling but it is going down

Number of people participating in football in England from 2016 to 2019

 
 
  Number of participants
2019 2,056,900
2018 2,095,900
2017 2,299,700
2016 2,299,000

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9 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Of course that must be done, and the reason why it didn't happen with Fulham, Kent, Cardiff, Bridgend and the rest is that they lacked the necessary profile and stature to stimulate it in their markets unlike the Toronto Raptors who did have the necessary profile and stature to stimulate the growth of basketball in Canada.  Due to that profile and stature the Raptors also have plenty of money, so they can afford to help that growth financially although I don't know that they need to particularly because on the back of the profile and stature which the Raptors gave basketball here those involved in the non-professional game here can probably raise enough money on their own without having to look to the Raptors for money.

How will that method of growth transfer to the Wolfpack and the Aces? genuine question.

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14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In my opinion for any team outside of those "certain places in the north" it needs to accomplish two things for the longevity of the game, a support base and an infrastructure/grassroots they need both to work.

I think masters rugby or touch/tag for adults should be a part if it too. 

If people play the game they're more likely to engage in all aspects of fandom

I personally have introduced 3 ex union mates of a certain age to play in our summer arthritic masters fixtures. They now have an interest in league 

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21 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Are more players playing now in london pre broncos or post?

Are more players playing in newcastle now or pre Thunder?

Are more player's playing in Toronto now or will they in the future? To acheive any growth Scotchy day one has to be undertaken or even a structured plan of growth produced.

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38 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

There is a lot of junior RL played in London and Hemel.... Most of which is pushed by Broncos

 

I said elsewhere that the Broncos using London as a identification doesn't really sit well with a football dominated tribalised city,  and perhaps Brentford Broncos would be better, also particularly as The Bees are going to a new stadium and Broncos could tie in with that. Opinions? BTW Brentford is near Ealing. 

Edited by HawkMan
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8 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Oh and by the way, my question about investment applies to heartland clubs too, what could we achieve in Oldham, or Barrow say, with the right investment, and why don’t we get it?

Investment is usually done to get a profitable return. As that is probably unlikely by investing in a RL Club, that limits the potential investor / purchaser to maybe be a fan of that Club who does put the cash in for the love of the game and the Club. Unfortunately there aren't many of these people around.

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3 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Investment is usually done to get a profitable return. As that is probably unlikely by investing in a RL Club, that limits the potential investor / purchaser to maybe be a fan of that Club who does put the cash in for the love of the game and the Club. Unfortunately there aren't many of these people around.

Exactly. The logical solution is therefore make the game more poplular meaning push the game in more places meaning expanding the range of club sides so that the game is more accessible and hopefully more profitable as a whole.

The sport cannot keep relying on the Derek Beaumont's of this world to invest in the game because they've been brought up on it. Its a risky investment solution.

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10 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Investment is usually done to get a profitable return. As that is probably unlikely by investing in a RL Club, that limits the potential investor / purchaser to maybe be a fan of that Club who does put the cash in for the love of the game and the Club. Unfortunately there aren't many of these people around.

  It has always surprised me that when a wealthy individual leaves the sport there is not one of his/her friends who replaces them.

When O'Connor left Widnes and Dr Koukash left Salford this was the case.Yet I'm certain they mix in wealthy circles.Surely there  business acumen,love for the game/club,and social intercourse,can persuade other wealthy folk to show an interest.

 I'm flabbergasted that wealthy people leave the sport without replacements in position to takeover - as there is in business.


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

It's hardly struggling but it is going down

Number of people participating in football in England from 2016 to 2019

 
 
  Number of participants
2019 2,056,900
2018 2,095,900
2017 2,299,700
2016 2,299,000

So not struggling then. ?

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46 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

I said elsewhere that the Broncos using London as a identification doesn't really sit well with a football dominated tribalised city,  and perhaps Brentford Broncos would be better, also particularly as The Bees are going to a new stadium and Broncos could tie in with that. Opinions? BTW Brentford is near Ealing. 

Bees are going in with London Irish as their tenants. Given the general faffing around (in both rugby codes) at the moment about what's going to be played when (and the potential for summer RU and winter RL depending on what's going to be allowed) I'm not sure the addition of a third set of fixtures to deconflict is something that either LI or Brentford would jump at sadly.

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2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly. The logical solution is therefore make the game more poplular meaning push the game in more places meaning expanding the range of club sides so that the game is more accessible and hopefully more profitable as a whole.

The sport cannot keep relying on the Derek Beaumont's of this world to invest in the game because they've been brought up on it. Its a risky investment solution.

Your theory is right for expansion, but where would the money come from to start new Clubs? Also a new Club, to attract new fans would need instant success to hook the potential new supporters in, so even more money would be required. We have seen the efforts in Oxford, Gloucester etc fail in recent years with crowds of a couple of hundred as the bungled round in Division 1. Very difficult to attract anybody new to the game to watch that. Toronto were able to put a winning side together which will have created interest and curiosity for people to go and give it a try. It will be interesting to see how their crowds hold up now they are in SL and success is harder to come by. Their fans have only seen them lose twice at home since they started. Some fans are fickle and demand success, look how the Johnny Come Latelys ran for the hills when Bradford Bulls hit on hard times. The game does have to try to expand, but it is a very difficult process.

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48 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

I said elsewhere that the Broncos using London as a identification doesn't really sit well with a football dominated tribalised city,  and perhaps Brentford Broncos would be better, also particularly as The Bees are going to a new stadium and Broncos could tie in with that. Opinions? BTW Brentford is near Ealing. 

I know Brentford well mate, especially the old Griffin park

Unfortunately London irish are sharing the stadium already. I guess no reason why we couldn't share too seeing as union play Saturdays. Ealing is more than big enough currently though 

I think the London part of the name is important. Global recognition and all that

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It isn't though is it John? as RL does what Sky says points out he names 16 teams that are not in "certain places in the north" that have had the game introduced to them within their midst but chose not to accept it.

In my opinion for any team outside of those "certain places in the north" it needs to accomplish two things for the longevity of the game, a support base and an infrastructure/grassroots they need both to work.

If the fans and the RL authorities want the game to remain a regional oddity, then yes that will never change. The existing RL fans can then enjoy it until it disappears.

Jobs sorted. 

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