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Has the rugby league scoring system always been like this?


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17 minutes ago, DavidM said:

It was 3 points for a try until the early 80s

Yes, I think it was in 1983 when it changed to 4 points.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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In his book, Rugby's Great Split, Prof. Tony Collins says that it was in the second season of Northern Union play that the value of all goals was reduced to two points, and hence less than the three awarded for a try.  I presume this refers to four types of goal, namely drop goal, field goal, penalty goal and the goal after a try (in modern popular parlance, a 'conversion')

So - I think this is right! - at the time of the NU breakaway (and hence in its first season), a try was worth three points, and five points were awarded for successfully kicking the ball between the uprights and over the crossbar, thus converting the try into a goal.  A penalty goal was worth three points, while a drop goal and field goal were each worth four.

I would be grateful for confirmation or correction of this from one of our esteemed historians such as Padge or Number 16.

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58 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

In his book, Rugby's Great Split, Prof. Tony Collins says that it was in the second season of Northern Union play that the value of all goals was reduced to two points, and hence less than the three awarded for a try.  I presume this refers to four types of goal, namely drop goal, field goal, penalty goal and the goal after a try (in modern popular parlance, a 'conversion')

So - I think this is right! - at the time of the NU breakaway (and hence in its first season), a try was worth three points, and five points were awarded for successfully kicking the ball between the uprights and over the crossbar, thus converting the try into a goal.  A penalty goal was worth three points, while a drop goal and field goal were each worth four.

I would be grateful for confirmation or correction of this from one of our esteemed historians such as Padge or Number 16.

The points values as you state were the correct ones though what you describe as 'field goal' was actually 'goal scored from mark'. A player making a "fair catch" as described in the 1895 rules had the option to mark the ball and take a shot at goal from the place where they made the catch. This was worth 4 points like the drop goal was. I don't think it was clear what constituted 'a fair catch' but it is likely to have been a player catching the ball after it had been kicked into the air by an opposing player whilst in the field of play.

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In the early days of Rugby, a try was worth nothing unless it was "converted" into points with a successful kick. Hence the word conversion.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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1 minute ago, Futtocks said:

In the early days of Rugby, a try was worth nothing unless it was "converted" into points with a successful kick. Hence the word conversion.

Yes, it is called a try as it allowed the team achieving it to have a try at kicking a goal. All points initially came from goals only. Later but still pre-1895 different public schools and local organisations used their own scoring systems with some counting tries and some not. Some I believe used a count of tries (while still worth 0 points) only in the event of no goals being scored in order to determine a winner. Only later as the forms of football became codified by the Victorian administrators were universal scoring methods adopted within the rugby (pre-1895 split) code.

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14 minutes ago, John Rhino said:

Is there a difference between a field goal and a drop goal?

I always thought this was just a difference in Aussie and UK vocabulary 

The 'field goal', which could be scored in open play by kicking a loose ball above the cross bar and between the posts,It was abolished.in 1922

 

 

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regards scoring

in 1897

  • The value of a drop goal was reduced from four points to two points
  • The value of a penalty goal was reduced from three points to two points.
  • The value of a goal from mark was reduced from four points to two points
  • The value of a field goal was reduced from four points to two points.

in 1971

Value of a drop goal was reduced from two points to one point

in 1983

The value of try was increased from three points to four points

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8 hours ago, POR said:

The 'field goal', which could be scored in open play by kicking a loose ball above the cross bar and between the posts,It was abolished.in 1922

It was abolished in 1950. The deviant Australians, who had no right to change the laws of the game, abolished it under some sort of local change to the sport's rules 1922. Worse still, they for some reason managed to start using the term 'field goal' for the completely different drop goal which is why there is some confusion now about what the field goal actually was.

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1 hour ago, M j M said:

It was abolished in 1950. The deviant Australians, who had no right to change the laws of the game, abolished it under some sort of local change to the sport's rules 1922. Worse still, they for some reason managed to start using the term 'field goal' for the completely different drop goal which is why there is some confusion now about what the field goal actually was.

Spot on, MjM. 

The irony of the Aussies confusing the situation is that one of their greatest ever players, Dally Messenger, was, by all accounts, something of a field goal specialist.  So, now try telling that to a young Aussie kid with no knowledge of RL's history and they will have completely the wrong image in their head.

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12 hours ago, wiganermike said:

The points values as you state were the correct ones though what you describe as 'field goal' was actually 'goal scored from mark'. A player making a "fair catch" as described in the 1895 rules had the option to mark the ball and take a shot at goal from the place where they made the catch. This was worth 4 points like the drop goal was. I don't think it was clear what constituted 'a fair catch' but it is likely to have been a player catching the ball after it had been kicked into the air by an opposing player whilst in the field of play.

Thanks for confirming the score values, Wiganermike, but, like POR, I suspect that a goal from a mark and a field goal were different things.

As to what constituted a 'fair catch' for a mark, I don't know.  In Australian Rules football, in which taking marks continues to be a key feature, the current definition of one seems to be merely to have control of the ball in the hands for the briefest of moments.  Whether it was ever thus, I do not know.

I first played rugby - the union code - in the early 1960s.  At that time, you could claim a mark anywhere on the field of play, but, as I recall, you had to catch the ball on the fly, shout "Mark!" and dig one of your heels into the ground all exactly simultaneously.  As with knock-ons, the rule was subsequently relaxed somewhat; I think you no longer needed to do more than catch and shout at the same time.

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1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Thanks for confirming the score values, Wiganermike, but, like POR, I suspect that a goal from a mark and a field goal were different things.

As to what constituted a 'fair catch' for a mark, I don't know.  In Australian Rules football, in which taking marks continues to be a key feature, the current definition of one seems to be merely to have control of the ball in the hands for the briefest of moments.  Whether it was ever thus, I do not know.

I first played rugby - the union code - in the early 1960s.  At that time, you could claim a mark anywhere on the field of play, but, as I recall, you had to catch the ball on the fly, shout "Mark!" and dig one of your heels into the ground all exactly simultaneously.  As with knock-ons, the rule was subsequently relaxed somewhat; I think you no longer needed to do more than catch and shout at the same time.

That's true   in a goal from a mark only  the player who called the mark was allowed to take a shot at goal 

a field goal could happen anywhere on the field any time through the game when the balls  on the ground any player could run up and take a shot a goal and if it missed and stayed in play on the ground they could have another go

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4 hours ago, M j M said:

It was abolished in 1950. The deviant Australians, who had no right to change the laws of the game, abolished it under some sort of local change to the sport's rules 1922. Worse still, they for some reason managed to start using the term 'field goal' for the completely different drop goal which is why there is some confusion now about what the field goal actually was.

Were many points scored this way?

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Were many points scored this way?

 

Hard to say.  They're just recorded as goals.  In the same way that it's hard to tell penalties from conversions unless you read the match reports.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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11 hours ago, SL17 said:

I looked in to what a five-eighth was a good while ago as didn’t understand the terminology.. From what I learnt was it’s a zonal position of the stand off next to the centres. Basically they don’t have free reign.

Fullback,three quarters and half back so the stand off is called a 5/8 over there because he’s in between the half back and the three quarters. 

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in the old rules the mark could  be  called anywhere on the pitch anywhere you caught the ball funny thing although kicking for goal from a mark was abolished in 1922  can't find it anywhere where the actually calling for a mark was abolished  so in theory any body could still use it  ????

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32 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Fullback,three quarters and half back so the stand off is called a 5/8 over there because he’s in between the half back and the three quarters. 

They're very mathematical in Australia.

So why is the loose forward called a lock and not a three eighth back ?

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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23 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Hence the word 'try' at goal I believe? 

and the reason presumably the French use the term "Essai" for a try

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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One of the first games of RU I ever played (after playing U17) RL my team scored two penalty goals against the opposition's two tries i thought we'd lost.  i was in the bath after the game before I was told that we hadn't lost, we'd drawn, a penalty in Union in those days being 3 points and a try 3 points.  

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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