Stabilization v Expansion

[17 stone giant]

2 hours ago, SL17 said:

Can’t wait.

England v France what a cracker..

I probably wouldn't describe it as a cracker, although hopefully if France improve it could be a decent game in the future.

I just think that if you're going to play against France, it might be worth trying to play it in different venues such as Portsmouth, rather than in the same old places that have been used before. After all, this thread is about finding ways to expand interest in the game. You're probably not going to do that if you play always in Leigh.

Anyway, if not England v France, what international matches would you like to see played, and where?

[17 stone giant]

13 hours ago, SL17 said:

Ive yet to see a full French side.

That's up to the RFL and French equivalent to ensure that the best players are available.

13 hours ago, SL17 said:

If you want  a different location then you need a better fixture.

Realistically that only leaves New Zealand or Australia.

[AB90]

On 11/06/2020 at 08:20, whatmichaelsays said:

Agree. Whilst internationals are undoubtedly part of the picture, the sport in this country can't put all of its eggs in that basket because Australia (and more specifically, the NRL) are holding the handle. Without the cooperation of the NRL, which doesn't look like it's forthcoming any time soon, the game has to look at other ways to control it's own destiny. 

Agreed. It's tough for us on the international front as realistically the 7 most competitive teams for England to play are all based on the otherside of the world (Aus, NZ, Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, PNG and Lebanon).

I imagine we (northern hemisphere) don't have much bargaining power when it comes to organising international tournaments/fixtures as of the top 8 international teams in the world, 95% of the players that represent them come from the NRL.

A lot of it is unfortunately our fault as we have done nothing to develop the home nations (unlike the nrl for all its criticisms has and is doing a decent job in the Pacific and its surrounding areas).

[fighting irish]

The gulf between England and all other Northern Hemisphere nations is so great, I think the others should organise games amongst themselves, leaving England out of it, until the standard rises. Such games will give aspiring youngsters opportunities to represent their countries in competitive International matches and act as an inducement for young people to commit to Rugby League. Also, games against Canada, Jamaica and USA, or Brazil would I'm sure, draw good crowds if promoted properly. 

[Big Picture]

27 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

The gulf between England and all other Northern Hemisphere nations is so great, I think the others should organise games amongst themselves, leaving England out of it, until the standard rises. Such games will give aspiring youngsters opportunities to represent their countries in competitive International matches and act as an inducement for young people to commit to Rugby League. Also, games against Canada, Jamaica and USA, or Brazil would I'm sure, draw good crowds if promoted properly. 

How do you suggest they do that when they have no real money to speak of?

[fighting irish]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

How do you suggest they do that when they have no real money to speak of?

As exciting as it is, to see some of the worlds best players (England) on the field, the prospect of an embarrassing mismatch can kill the spectacle and undermine the sales potential. Wales v Jamaica, or Ireland v USA or France v Canada, where the outcome of such a match is uncertain, can I believe, be sold to existing fans and newcomers in good numbers.

To answer your question, if it can't be financed, it can't be done.

I'm assuming that at least some of these organisations will be able to finance these fixtures through a mixture of grant aid, private sponsorship, gate receipts and tv fees and if its done right it's possible, even likely, they could be profitable.

If they can make money, then year on year, the turnover should increase. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

41 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

As exciting as it is, to see some of the worlds best players (England) on the field, the prospect of an embarrassing mismatch can kill the spectacle and undermine the sales potential. Wales v Jamaica, or Ireland v USA or France v Canada, where the outcome of such a match is uncertain, can I believe, be sold to existing fans and newcomers in good numbers.

To answer your question, if it can't be financed, it can't be done.

I'm assuming that at least some of these organisations will be able to finance these fixtures through a mixture of grant aid, private sponsorship, gate receipts and tv fees and if its done right it's possible, even likely, they could be profitable.

If they can make money, then year on year, the turnover should increase. 

I think that if England aren't involved in a Northern Hemisphere tournament, then it won't be of sufficiently high profile to attract players to play in it or generate any money. We've got quite a lot of evidence now that tells us if one of these weaker nations is involved in a big tournament (e.g. 4N or World Cup) then a higher standard of player will put their hand up to play. But if they're involved in a low profile comp (e.g. Euro Champs or WC qualifiers) then many of those same players opt not to play.

So we're left with a vicious circle, in that England doesn't play these teams because they're not competitive enough, but they'll never get a chance to become competitive because they never play England.

[fighting irish]

6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I disagree. You need the higher standard, better visibility and bigger stage to interest people. 

I do think there is a necessity for a route in for emerging nations as well. 9s is a great way to keep things competitive.

But we also need to measure the improvement in nations. France are a good example because no doubt we have seen an improvement in france yet compared nations like tonga and fiji they look like they are going backwards but that's largely down to heritage players. 

We need a mix of games ar differing levels. 

I'm confident we can finance games such as this in Wales.

I'm also confident that players will opt in (some would give their eye-teeth to take part). 

I think where we are in Wales, it's a necessity to find testing opposition every year and also guard against entering into farcical mis-matches.

Emerging nations everywhere have the same needs.

So what I'm advocating is the ''squash ladder'' approach (as described in other posts), where emerging nations can play others of similar standard every year as the standards rise.

The top team in the ladder could/might challenge England at some point in future.

Eventually, England can take their place in the ladder.

I'm happy that we differ.

I just think that we should be arranging these games and continuing to promote our game in these emerging nations and we don't need England fixtures to do that. 

[fighting irish]

13 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think that if England aren't involved in a Northern Hemisphere tournament, then it won't be of sufficiently high profile to attract players to play in it or generate any money. We've got quite a lot of evidence now that tells us if one of these weaker nations is involved in a big tournament (e.g. 4N or World Cup) then a higher standard of player will put their hand up to play. But if they're involved in a low profile comp (e.g. Euro Champs or WC qualifiers) then many of those same players opt not to play.

So we're left with a vicious circle, in that England doesn't play these teams because they're not competitive enough, but they'll never get a chance to become competitive because they never play England.

The point I want to make is that we pick the players who make themselves available .

Play the games.

They are in and of themselves very powerful motivators. They provide opportunities for quality players to represent their country. The honour of representing your country (especially Wales) is a huge draw for young players.

Playing once every 3 or 4 years is just not enough to build anything on.

I say let's play our part in developing the game in Wales and in other countries of a similar standard as ourselves and stop looking to England for leadership or even for encouragement. 

I'm tired of waiting lets get on and do it. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Playing once every 3 or 4 years is just not enough to build anything on.

I say let's play our part in developing the game in Wales and in other countries of a similar standard as ourselves and stop looking to England for leadership or even for encouragement. 

I'm tired of waiting lets get on and do it. 

I agree that getting regular games is a priority. However, I'm not sure that these home nations have much if any budget to throw at such a tournament. Getting teams in camp for a 3-4 game tournament is going to cost money in terms of paying players and staff, facility hire, accommodation, stadium hire etc. I fear that their available budgets are so miniscule that it might prove a stumbling block straight away if England aren't involved.

6 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

The point I want to make is that we pick the players who make themselves available .

Play the games.

They are in and of themselves very powerful motivators. They provide opportunities for quality players to represent their country. The honour of representing your country (especially Wales) is a huge draw for young players.

I'm not sure if playing RL for Wales in low-profile internationals is as big a draw as you think. Check out this interview with Ben Flower that had the following quotes:

“It’s difficult playing for Wales, when you know that most of the time you are not going to come up against the best opposition there is,”  he said. “You don’t play in the biggest games. Playing internationally should be the highlight of your career, but for me at present it isn’t." https://www.totalrl.com/ben-flower-hopeful-celtic-players-arent-picked-for-great-britain-as-token-gestures/

Also, Morgan Knowles and Regan Grace both sat out the 2018 Euro Championships and WC qualifiers, opting to rest instead. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/45895314

I love your optimism and enthusiasm, but I just can't see the top players putting their hands up to play in a tournament unless it's of a sufficiently high profile. And currently in the NH, England are the only really high profile team.

[Big Picture]

18 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I agree that getting regular games is a priority. However, I'm not sure that these home nations have much if any budget to throw at such a tournament. Getting teams in camp for a 3-4 game tournament is going to cost money in terms of paying players and staff, facility hire, accommodation, stadium hire etc. I fear that their available budgets are so miniscule that it might prove a stumbling block straight away if England aren't involved.

I'm not sure if playing RL for Wales in low-profile internationals is as big a draw as you think. Check out this interview with Ben Flower that had the following quotes:

“It’s difficult playing for Wales, when you know that most of the time you are not going to come up against the best opposition there is,”  he said. “You don’t play in the biggest games. Playing internationally should be the highlight of your career, but for me at present it isn’t." https://www.totalrl.com/ben-flower-hopeful-celtic-players-arent-picked-for-great-britain-as-token-gestures/

Also, Morgan Knowles and Regan Grace both sat out the 2018 Euro Championships and WC qualifiers, opting to rest instead. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/45895314

I love your optimism and enthusiasm, but I just can't see the top players putting their hands up to play in a tournament unless it's of a sufficiently high profile. And currently in the NH, England are the only really high profile team.

The lack of such matches being organized outside of RLEF tournaments suggests that those nations don't have any budget for them.  The RLEF can't have a lot of money to spend either seeing that their tournaments are very low key, as this match illustrates.

18 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I'm confident we can finance games such as this in Wales.

I'm also confident that players will opt in (some would give their eye-teeth to take part).

As you can see above, the crowd when Wales played Ireland in a World Cup Qualifier the stadium was only about 10% full and that match had by far the biggest crowd in the tournament of the matches not played in France, so I'm curious what leads you to think that the matches which you'd like to see would be financially viable for the Welsh, Irish and Scottish governing bodies to put on.

Ben Flower's remarks would suggest that a lot of effort would be needed to get the top players to opt in too.