Stabilization v Expansion

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, Bob8 said:

I know.

That is obviously the problem.

It is going to get far worse. So let's stick to what we were doing, eh?

If what we;re doing is going to get worse surely we need to change something, I'd spend some of the £16 million on development officers around the country.

[LaneCoveTiger]

22 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

How can expansion be achieved without some changes happening to the existing hierarchy?

If you have a top division that includes Toronto, London, New York, etc. (I'm talking about the sort of hypothetical future that sometimes gets mentioned on here), it surely follows that some of the existing SL clubs will eventually lose their status in the top division. That doesn't necessarily mean they will die, but it would mean fans of those clubs coming to terms with them not being SL clubs anymore.

Great point and one that is hard to solve. Possibly having a set number of English teams with P-R and franchised overseas teams.

[Oldbear]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

If what we;re doing is going to get worse surely we need to change something, I'd spend some of the £16 million on development officers around the country.

I would actually hold back a portion of the Sky money to spend on development officers.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I would actually hold back a portion of the Sky money to spend on development officers.

I totally agree.

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I say this literally whilst playing a computer game lol, but I'm not entirely sure.

School sports would be an obvious point to me. But even at the school I went to, the number of players and therefore teams, has dropped within the space of 5 years. This is a school that when I was there, could put out 3 senior 15s and 2 for every yeargroup between y7 to y11, every saturday. I'm not suggesting such a radical shift but wednesday afternoons as a dedicated club sport time at schools wouldn't go amiss imo. Schools do have that ability to both force kids to do sport and cater for all in certain aspects, which leads onto another point. 

Accessibility. Our sport is fairly strong where it is strong, but even a bit beyond that its non-existent, both in physical terms and in psychology. We drop off the map. In a lot of our traditional areas our clubs aren't the community hubs they once were and some aspects of the junior game are appalling considering what is ultimately expected of it. 

Facilities. In an increasingly nanny state age where more and more parents are more concerned about the activities their kids do, our amateur clubs can struggle somewhat, especially when compared with union. The games essentially make little difference to this point, but having spent a fair amount of time in both club union and league facilities over the past decade or so, its been clear to see which one is going forwards.

I suppose also linked to the accessibility thing is the point that our game can be quite intimidating for newbies. Its rough, demanding and has a relatively high fitness floor. Frankly, sitting on an xbox playing online with your mates is easier.

I suppose rounding it out, maybe a more casual avenue is needed. Dare I say evening 9s competitions? But certainly a more social way to play the game is essential going forward imo, both for juniors and adults who may not be in a position to commit to every Saturday morning. 5 a side football is a booming industry never mind sporting activity. Perhaps we need to think a bit more laterally?

I know you said you've been involved in the junior game harry, what do you think? 

Hi Tommy, sorry I am late in replying me and the missus went out last night to the theatre, preceeded by a lovely meal in a plush restaurant and followed by a bit of a pub crawl, then I awoke this morning!

Seriously though, I have lost touch somewhat with the coaching and admin side of the community game in recent years and satisfy myself now with just spectating at games. When one has been involved in what was such a thriving well subscribed amatuer sport both in player numbers and those wanting to get involved or those who like me now just went along to watch the games it is heartbreaking to see how it is decending and very quickly. I don't get to very many junior and youth fixtures these day's but I hear things are not as they were not to long ago, the open age set up has fewer teams and very little interest it seems in the numbers of those who frequented the touch lines there are considerably less watching. I am relating to my town of Leigh albeit I should imagine it is emulated in other places and obviously (hopefully) there will be places still thriving.

Putting my "old geezers" hat on, coincidence maybe as society has changed but the amatuer game has seemed to have a reverse action to what was going to be the push in player number's and also entice more to the grounds, that was the seasonal switch to summer from winter. It was going to be great for the kids not having to turn up in the cold, wind and rain, the older age groups would also favour the different climatic conditions, and what better for the speccies to stand in shirt sleeves and have a pint, chat and watch some rugby also, I was against it at the time and had a few discussions with those who qouted what I have described, I countered that there were to many other things to grab people's attention when the weather is fine, maybe her indoors wants to go out with the family at weekends, maybe on day trips, to a friends or relatives, holiday's would come into the equation, more weddings and christenings take place, with it stag do's etc, etc, most of those things take in weekends, not good for amatuer rugby something will have to give I argued, albeit I did conceed it could entice more out to spectate but that has not prooved the case either. I am not saying a reverse back to winter would be the answer, albeit has you say it is not doing the other code any harm, so that could be food for thought.

So what to do? Has you say there as to be an initial introduction to the sport and then that interest nurtured and kept going, schools are as you say is the obvious medium, but it seems to few schools have enough sports teacher's who have an interest in the game to add it to the curriculum or are prepared to give time to after school activities - sorry for realating back in time but when I was at both junior and senior school we had regular fixtures with other schools in the close but also extended area's, and as I was to learn years later it was all down to the PE masters who arranged it all and gave their time for it to happen - another point just to mention, when as a sport we were very active in the universities it was said then that with more students playing the gamè who would go into teaching and commerce the sport would make a lasting impression and stay with them and they would promote it in any way they could, it doesn't seem that has come to fruition in numbers that make any impact.

Everything today is about money, and without it things don't happen, we the converted know we have a good product, but it is the advertising, selling and after sales back-up that has to be serviced that we cannot compete with, this site, the trade mags, pay per view TV, are all for the aficionados.The governing body, the clubs, the wealthy owners should be recognizing that we are a patient very close if not already in need of a good dose of care and attention, it will not be long before if nothing is done to promote the game in enticing the young generation to take up the sport by way of a strategic well thought out plan of development we are going to be an intensive care patient. 

I think it has got past the stage that the sport is reliant on those hard working volunteer's at the community clubs to keep the momentum of player introduction and production on going, I know some pro clubs do more than others and some do nothing at all, but they all have to be in it together, contribute up to their status and be guided by the RFL, we don't need two CEO's get rid of one and put that saving towards a fund for development officer's for a start, oversea's teams should be made to do something for the development of the game in their vicinities or if not contribute to it over here, their requirement for player's is totally unequivocally dependent on others producing player's much moreso than club's who do not have academies but their local community clubs produce them which adds to the player pool. 

So really I have nothing to offer in terms of suggestions, to me if the professional side of our game doesn't react and soon, we the sport will slide into oblivion. Sorry I have nothing more constructive to add.

[Harry Stottle]

Hi big lad, re you sad emoji.

I am speaking through expierence and observation, anybody who doesn't  realise we are at a precarious situation in our sport in this country either has their head in the sand or are in denial that we have a problem in player development which is getting no better.

If the governing body don't do something to reverse this it is not going to improve, unless you have some other suggestion?

[17 stone giant]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi big lad, re you sad emoji.

I was sad at the thought of the game sliding into oblivion.

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

I was sad at the thought of the game sliding into oblivion.

Sorry I was on the defensive.

[17 stone giant]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry I was on the defensive.

No worries, Harry. The emojis are a bit of a clunky tool sometimes, so I can understand why you maybe thought I was being dismissive of the points you were making. I'm certainly not, though - it's very clear that lots of sports are having similar issues in this modern age, in terms of participation etc.

For example, one of the local tennis courts near to me got replaced by 3G football pitches, simply because they make more money and there's more demand for them. That's fine to a point, but now there's nowhere nearby for anyone to play tennis. Rather than having both facilities, the football pushed the tennis out.

Likewise, I've often thought recently that hockey must be struggling, because with the old astroturf (flat with a bit of sand on it), they could share a pitch with football. But now that football is using the 3G and 4G pitches - which you may know is much softer and more like real grass - there's no chance that hockey can share it. Not many places are going to spend money on a pitch solely for hockey, given its relative lack of popularity, so I can see that sport being pushed out too.

As for rugby league, I think you've got to keep encouraging people to play in the heartlands, but also try and find ways to attract interest from the rest of the country. That doesn't always mean new teams in new places - it might just mean new events and things that people can watch a few times a year. Getting new areas playing is a long term project - it won't happen overnight. But I think there are things that the sport can try to do, that will boost interest much more quickly. It won't suddenly bring the sport untold riches, but it might at least bring in a bit of new money, so that it's not the same few people in the heartlands who are funding everything.

 

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Tommy, sorry I am late in replying me and the missus went out last night to the theatre, preceeded by a lovely meal in a plush restaurant and followed by a bit of a pub crawl, then I awoke this morning!

Seriously though, I have lost touch somewhat with the coaching and admin side of the community game in recent years and satisfy myself now with just spectating at games. When one has been involved in what was such a thriving well subscribed amatuer sport both in player numbers and those wanting to get involved or those who like me now just went along to watch the games it is heartbreaking to see how it is decending and very quickly. I don't get to very many junior and youth fixtures these day's but I hear things are not as they were not to long ago, the open age set up has fewer teams and very little interest it seems in the numbers of those who frequented the touch lines there are considerably less watching. I am relating to my town of Leigh albeit I should imagine it is emulated in other places and obviously (hopefully) there will be places still thriving.

Putting my "old geezers" hat on, coincidence maybe as society has changed but the amatuer game has seemed to have a reverse action to what was going to be the push in player number's and also entice more to the grounds, that was the seasonal switch to summer from winter. It was going to be great for the kids not having to turn up in the cold, wind and rain, the older age groups would also favour the different climatic conditions, and what better for the speccies to stand in shirt sleeves and have a pint, chat and watch some rugby also, I was against it at the time and had a few discussions with those who qouted what I have described, I countered that there were to many other things to grab people's attention when the weather is fine, maybe her indoors wants to go out with the family at weekends, maybe on day trips, to a friends or relatives, holiday's would come into the equation, more weddings and christenings take place, with it stag do's etc, etc, most of those things take in weekends, not good for amatuer rugby something will have to give I argued, albeit I did conceed it could entice more out to spectate but that has not prooved the case either. I am not saying a reverse back to winter would be the answer, albeit has you say it is not doing the other code any harm, so that could be food for thought.

So what to do? Has you say there as to be an initial introduction to the sport and then that interest nurtured and kept going, schools are as you say is the obvious medium, but it seems to few schools have enough sports teacher's who have an interest in the game to add it to the curriculum or are prepared to give time to after school activities - sorry for realating back in time but when I was at both junior and senior school we had regular fixtures with other schools in the close but also extended area's, and as I was to learn years later it was all down to the PE masters who arranged it all and gave their time for it to happen - another point just to mention, when as a sport we were very active in the universities it was said then that with more students playing the gamè who would go into teaching and commerce the sport would make a lasting impression and stay with them and they would promote it in any way they could, it doesn't seem that has come to fruition in numbers that make any impact.

Everything today is about money, and without it things don't happen, we the converted know we have a good product, but it is the advertising, selling and after sales back-up that has to be serviced that we cannot compete with, this site, the trade mags, pay per view TV, are all for the aficionados.The governing body, the clubs, the wealthy owners should be recognizing that we are a patient very close if not already in need of a good dose of care and attention, it will not be long before if nothing is done to promote the game in enticing the young generation to take up the sport by way of a strategic well thought out plan of development we are going to be an intensive care patient. 

I think it has got past the stage that the sport is reliant on those hard working volunteer's at the community clubs to keep the momentum of player introduction and production on going, I know some pro clubs do more than others and some do nothing at all, but they all have to be in it together, contribute up to their status and be guided by the RFL, we don't need two CEO's get rid of one and put that saving towards a fund for development officer's for a start, oversea's teams should be made to do something for the development of the game in their vicinities or if not contribute to it over here, their requirement for player's is totally unequivocally dependent on others producing player's much moreso than club's who do not have academies but their local community clubs produce them which adds to the player pool. 

So really I have nothing to offer in terms of suggestions, to me if the professional side of our game doesn't react and soon, we the sport will slide into oblivion. Sorry I have nothing more constructive to add.

Hi Harry, I will respond to this later I've just got a busy day today (shock horror!). I think it deserves more consideration than a few moments on my phone! 

[Oldbear]

3 hours ago, SL17 said:

So do you believe expansion clubs should take priority over established clubs? 
 

No, but we can never give up on trying to expand. My concern has always been that it seems like the RFL, clubs and even fans don’t want anything that threatens to disturb the status quo. The RFL don’t want anyone questioning how they work, the clubs don’t want anyone new who might jeopardize their own position in the hierarchy and fans don’t want a new team if it displaces theirs from its position. With that attitude it’s no surprise the game fails to expand. I think that all clubs should be given an equal chance and the strong will come through. 

[Oldbear]

6 hours ago, SL17 said:

10K at the Lamport doesn't justify the targets that have failed so far. Great seeing such enthusiasm, but have the original plans been met?

 

I don’t know, does anyone? The main issue I think is that ALL clubs should be made to lodge strategic plans with the RFL, these should cover finances, marketing, junior development, how they intend to grow crowds and these should be monitored by RFL officials in the same way a business plan is submitted then monitored. Clubs who fail to achieve should face sanctions in some form, well run clubs rewarded. In the case of Toronto, from what little I know they would score well on growing crowds and marketing, but poorly on finance (you can’t pay your suppliers late) and obviously development.

[Hela Wigmen]

6 hours ago, SL17 said:

 

10K at the Lamport doesn't justify the targets that have failed so far. Great seeing such enthusiasm, but have the original plans been met?

 

Plans change. It’s normal for them to. 

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, SL17 said:

Not when you submit them to the RFL.

They do. History tells you such. 

[Tommygilf]

On 08/06/2020 at 10:20, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Tommy, sorry I am late in replying me and the missus went out last night to the theatre, preceeded by a lovely meal in a plush restaurant and followed by a bit of a pub crawl, then I awoke this morning!

Seriously though, I have lost touch somewhat with the coaching and admin side of the community game in recent years and satisfy myself now with just spectating at games. When one has been involved in what was such a thriving well subscribed amatuer sport both in player numbers and those wanting to get involved or those who like me now just went along to watch the games it is heartbreaking to see how it is decending and very quickly. I don't get to very many junior and youth fixtures these day's but I hear things are not as they were not to long ago, the open age set up has fewer teams and very little interest it seems in the numbers of those who frequented the touch lines there are considerably less watching. I am relating to my town of Leigh albeit I should imagine it is emulated in other places and obviously (hopefully) there will be places still thriving.

Putting my "old geezers" hat on, coincidence maybe as society has changed but the amatuer game has seemed to have a reverse action to what was going to be the push in player number's and also entice more to the grounds, that was the seasonal switch to summer from winter. It was going to be great for the kids not having to turn up in the cold, wind and rain, the older age groups would also favour the different climatic conditions, and what better for the speccies to stand in shirt sleeves and have a pint, chat and watch some rugby also, I was against it at the time and had a few discussions with those who qouted what I have described, I countered that there were to many other things to grab people's attention when the weather is fine, maybe her indoors wants to go out with the family at weekends, maybe on day trips, to a friends or relatives, holiday's would come into the equation, more weddings and christenings take place, with it stag do's etc, etc, most of those things take in weekends, not good for amatuer rugby something will have to give I argued, albeit I did conceed it could entice more out to spectate but that has not prooved the case either. I am not saying a reverse back to winter would be the answer, albeit has you say it is not doing the other code any harm, so that could be food for thought.

So what to do? Has you say there as to be an initial introduction to the sport and then that interest nurtured and kept going, schools are as you say is the obvious medium, but it seems to few schools have enough sports teacher's who have an interest in the game to add it to the curriculum or are prepared to give time to after school activities - sorry for realating back in time but when I was at both junior and senior school we had regular fixtures with other schools in the close but also extended area's, and as I was to learn years later it was all down to the PE masters who arranged it all and gave their time for it to happen - another point just to mention, when as a sport we were very active in the universities it was said then that with more students playing the gamè who would go into teaching and commerce the sport would make a lasting impression and stay with them and they would promote it in any way they could, it doesn't seem that has come to fruition in numbers that make any impact.

Everything today is about money, and without it things don't happen, we the converted know we have a good product, but it is the advertising, selling and after sales back-up that has to be serviced that we cannot compete with, this site, the trade mags, pay per view TV, are all for the aficionados.The governing body, the clubs, the wealthy owners should be recognizing that we are a patient very close if not already in need of a good dose of care and attention, it will not be long before if nothing is done to promote the game in enticing the young generation to take up the sport by way of a strategic well thought out plan of development we are going to be an intensive care patient. 

I think it has got past the stage that the sport is reliant on those hard working volunteer's at the community clubs to keep the momentum of player introduction and production on going, I know some pro clubs do more than others and some do nothing at all, but they all have to be in it together, contribute up to their status and be guided by the RFL, we don't need two CEO's get rid of one and put that saving towards a fund for development officer's for a start, oversea's teams should be made to do something for the development of the game in their vicinities or if not contribute to it over here, their requirement for player's is totally unequivocally dependent on others producing player's much moreso than club's who do not have academies but their local community clubs produce them which adds to the player pool. 

So really I have nothing to offer in terms of suggestions, to me if the professional side of our game doesn't react and soon, we the sport will slide into oblivion. Sorry I have nothing more constructive to add.

Hi Harry, sorry for the tardiness but it was the first time I've seen my mates in person in ages yesterday at our bbq in the front garden!

I empathise with what you're saying, its what I see too. 

I suppose it is a societal change that means people are generally less active in sports teams now, both in schools and in social clubs. I don't think Rugby League has all the answers to that but I certainly think it can be part of the answer. Like I said even in my old school interest has declined but even then there is still an established fixture list from the first week in September to the February half term, plus county cup fixtures at u12s, u14s and u16s, national cup fixtures at u13s, u15s and 1st Team level as well as various invitational sevens and 15s tournaments and then tours at various age groups to varying nations globally. The age groups train in games lessons on one afternoon and at least 1 but usually more lunchtimes and play on a Saturday. The whole of RU's junior sections play on Sunday's not because of tradition, but because the powerful schools play on Saturdays! And that is just Rugby, never-mind Cricket and Hockey. The culture of those schools (dare I say school pride) is such that they can organise these things relatively independent of the governing body - or at least with the governing body only taking a more active role in recent years. Even the pro clubs are somewhat unknown to this environment, perhaps that's because of where I went to school meaning the nearest club was second division Yorkshire Carnegie and at the top tier it was Sale, Leicester or Newcastle that were "closest". The closest we ever interacted with the pro game through school was a few coaching sessions with the then England sevens coach, Ben Ryan, and playing on the 4G surfaces at Newcastle and Saracens for cup games, as well as Twickenham I guess. Even then it didn't feel like the professional game really needed to involve itself in the schools because they just already did it. Like I said its sad to see even such a robust system decline in recent times but that is the times we live in. The strongest traditions need hardwork to keep them alive at times.

RL unfortunately doesn't exist in a school environment like that. However, I'd try to see that as a positive. If I was running the RFL I'd be prioritising the school game, creating a RFS(chools)L for schools to join. I'd immediately look to the core heartlands as well as any other interested schools of course and come up with a plan for say Wednesday afternoon fixtures between local schools to reduce costs. I'd try to get buy in from Amateur clubs by getting some games held at those pitches if the schools didn't have the facilities - particularly in the case of multiple age groups playing. I'd require professional clubs, primarily super league, but lower division sides if possible and appropriate, London and Newcastle for example, to be directly involved in the coaching at schools to support PE departments and provide that consistency and I suppose professionalism that the RU case I described above has. I'd then present that plan to the national government so that they would support and endorse it, perhaps even align funding towards it. As the recent loan has shown, this government and likely the next few of either colour are going to be keen to be seen investing in the RL towns and cities and the sport has to take advantage of this. Plenty of Academies are also aspiring to be like the private schools and this could be a way of our sport cashing in on that. It could even be 9s festivals held over a 6 week half term at 6 different schools if that was the appropriate level. 

I think amateur clubs will benefit from an upturn in schools introducing more players to the game. Their role will be to hone players skills and provide those who want it the opportunity to progress into the pro-arena. That said I would keep the scholarship aspect of the pro system out of the game until after the youngsters have done their GCSE's, purely from an academic perspective.

There is of course the other aspect which is making the professional game as exciting and attractive as possible. For that you need superstars, up to date marketing and a good profile. Those things require a certain platform and would be a different, but complimentary, angle for the game to progress with.

Essentially, if kids are on their xbox's and social medias all the time, make the game more relevant in those areas. My younger brother for example will like you not sit down and watch a game of football, he does however regularly play FIFA online with his mates and knows the players well. 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, SL17 said:

I was under the impression the strategic plan of Toronto hasn't hit a target yet. Attendance not being a target.

Attendance and engagement quite clearly is a target for a business that is less than 5 years old.

[Kayakman]

6 minutes ago, SL17 said:

I was under the impression the strategic plan of Toronto hasn't hit a target yet. Attendance not being a target.

Incorrect, in fact Toronto has hit every benchmark it has set for itself so far....you know this.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, SL17 said:

That wouldn't have been a target set by the RFL.

Probably would have been one to demonstrably grow crowds and interest. 

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, SL17 said:

You are picking at straws now Tommy. You'll be saying beer consumption next.. lol.

How is having good crowds as a target clutching at straws? Is it because it doesn't fit your strawman?

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Because you think thats a target. When its not. The whole point from the RFL regarding expansion would be sustainabiltity. Toronto could have 20k a week in a stadium,that doesn't make them sustainable.

Does it?

Are you for real? 

[TheReaper]

7 hours ago, SL17 said:

Because you think thats a target. When its not. The whole point from the RFL regarding expansion would be sustainabiltity. Toronto could have 20k a week in a stadium,that doesn't make them sustainable.

Does it?

If costs cover expenses, yes.

[Oxford]

7 hours ago, SL17 said:

Are they sustainable now?

If sustainable was the criteria SL17 there would be no Rugby League.

8 hours ago, SL17 said:

Are they sustainable now?

"Mr. Micawber: Copperfield, at present, I have nothing to bestow but advice. Still, that advice is so far worth taking. I have never taken it myself, and am the miserable creature you behold. Young friend, I counsel you: annual income, 20 pounds. Annual expenditure, 19 pounds. Result? Happiness. Annual income, 20 pounds. Annual expenditure, 21 pounds. Result? Misery. "

[Kayakman]

12 minutes ago, Oxford said:

If sustainable was the criteria SL17 there would be no Rugby League.

"Mr. Micawber: Copperfield, at present, I have nothing to bestow but advice. Still, that advice is so far worth taking. I have never taken it myself, and am the miserable creature you behold. Young friend, I counsel you: annual income, 20 pounds. Annual expenditure, 19 pounds. Result? Happiness. Annual income, 20 pounds. Annual expenditure, 21 pounds. Result? Misery. "

Hey, I love your quote at the bottom of your post page Oxford...its SO true!

[Kayakman]

8 hours ago, SL17 said:

Are they sustainable now? Oh yes I'm very real.

The answer is clearly a resounding "Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"   Let the sound of it echo off the cliffs and resound around the bay until all isolated hiker/campers hear it!   YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Oxford]

4 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Hey, I love your quote at the bottom of your post page Oxford...its SO true!

Charles Dickens had only one fault as a writer, he was paid by the Yard so tended to over indulge in a way very similar to RL clubs, and almost indistguishable from many posters.

#Runwiththepack until they meet SRD!