Martyn Sadler Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 58 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said: Hmm, I think you're setting very low expectations for him there, he's not a child. When I heard him speak he was very eloquent. He might have a gruff voice and thick accent but there's a very sharp mind in there. You also don't need to be an Oxford professor of English to be able to speak clearly. Millions of perfectly ordinary people can speak the words they intend without messing up, so there's no reason not to also expect that from the England rugby league head coach, a significant national sporting role which rightly carries great responsibility. I agree that everyone should be given the opportunity to explain, reflect on and learn from the things they say without the mob descending and I don't think anything in my post suggested "cancelling" him as the young people call it it today. But overall, why shouldn't people in positions of responsibility be accountable for the words they speak? I think they should be accountable, and Shaun is. That's why we've been debating what he said. I agree that he is an eloquent speaker and an intelligent man. But even the most politically adept operators can sometimes use words that are ill-chosen. The examples are too numerous to mention. I suspect that on reflection Shaun might use a different form of words, but he is fiercely patriotic and I'm very glad to see that quality in an England coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Cool Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 23 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: He has already selected one ayer whose parents came from Poland and arrived here aged 9. So you can smack away as much as you like, his actions do not reflect the way you suggest they do. He's still saying he might but would prefer not to unless they're born in England as he's patriotic whatever that means so doesn't change anything in the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: You dont have to be as wise as Socrates at all. Just don't be racist or bigoted or ignorant. It's easy. The issue is far more commonly that the speakers views are outdated and no longer acceptable than phrased poorly. People generally mean what they say. It is incumbent on the speaker to educate themselves, if what they say comes from ignorance rather than bigotry that's still on them Also if Wane isnt capable of speaking without saying silly offensive things then he isnt capable of being head coach of England RL. One thing I can guarantee is that Shaun is not as judgemental as you appear to be and if he were he wouldn't be a good coach of anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerrumonside ref Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I think if Shaun Wane has said ‘pure born English players’ then he is straying into the language of people who hold views on race I’m sure most would be appalled by. I’m sure it’s been done unknowingly and maybe just needs a spot of clarification. Wigan seem a progressive club so I’m sure he wouldn’t have lasted there if this wasn’t just a case of misspeaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 53 minutes ago, Eddie said: I don’t think Wane has said anything wrong here, and certainly isn’t being racist. He just didn’t articulate what he was trying to say very well. As national coach, he needs to articulate what he means as he’s in such a senior position. His comments, which clearly states he wants English born players, could be taken in a different manner to what he actually means. He may well not mean what he’s said, especially given German born Tom Johnstone is in the senior side and Polish born Mik Oledzki is in the Knights side, but he has to be clearer in what he does say so that they can’t be construed in a different manner. I’ve cringed at what Wane has said in the past and I cringed initially at what he said here. He always used to talk of “hating” Saints. I’m not asking a bloke from Wigan, who played for Wigan, coached Wigan and is a Wigan fan to be complimentary about Saints, not do I expect him to lie and go on about liking Saints but his pre-match interviews always seemed to mention “hate”, which is quite a strong and emotive word in what was and still is a tense rivalry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 44 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: He has already selected one ayer whose parents came from Poland and arrived here aged 9. So you can smack away as much as you like, his actions do not reflect the way you suggest they do. That is fair enough and I am happy to take his selection of Oledzki as evidence that he is looking for people who are passionate about representing England and have been brought through the English system. But all this really proves is that by saying 'purely English born players' he chose his words very badly and I am just pleased it wasn't during a live interview on the BBC. Perception is king in situations like this and he spoke very poorly and should learn from it. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 If there aren't 75% of people not with a Welsh accent in a rugby team I don't want that team going onto the paddock. And I downt/don't have a national passport, nuheethuh/neither duz/does Regan Grace. It's a UK passport Regan and I have. Do i want the UK to exist? No. England needs to reclaim Englishness, if it ever existed? I don't think it did, South-South Eastern England is England, by that I mean German, I want England to become independent of Britain, Wales is Britain, Britishness is Welshness. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Then he did say something wrong. It's part of his job to be able to articulate himself to the media. If he cant do that without straying in to some pretty dark places thats a major area of skill that is lacking It it really a dark place, or are you just being hysterical? He hasn’t said anything racist whatsoever, even if he meant what he said to the letter (which I seriously doubt) it wouldn’t be racist as of course there are plenty of ethnic minority players born in England. He has blatantly just said that he doesn’t want to pick Australians with an English grandparent who can’t get into the Kangaroos side. What are your views on Athletic Bilbao by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 43 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said: I think if Shaun Wane has said ‘pure born English players’ then he is straying into the language of people who hold views on race I’m sure most would be appalled by. I’m sure it’s been done unknowingly and maybe just needs a spot of clarification. Wigan seem a progressive club so I’m sure he wouldn’t have lasted there if this wasn’t just a case of misspeaking. Racism does not exist, there's only one race. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMEGA Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 One or two posters here seem to be turning this into a debate about some kind of racist, bigoted, ignoramus! This is about finding the right formula for selecting a national sports team while maintaining a level of integrity that protects the honour of doing so. I suggest those who wish to throw around labels like ‘racist’ have no justification for doing so and should take their agenda somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: That's pretty naive Martyn. I'm very sure that some very 'good coaches' have done some pretty bad things and hold some pretty repugnant views, sitting in judgement of people. Ask Timana Tahu. Wendell Sailor said A Johns is not racist, and Wendell is right. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 hours ago, OMEGA said: Simple with credibility, not contrived & shallow! Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just now, scotchy1 said: To refuse to pick a player because he didnt meet your personal standard of englishness is a pretty racist thing to do. It is naive to think that as some ethnic minority players play for england racial barriers and racist behaviour could not exist Would you be clearer please. Colourism exists, yes. IMO the main reason for that is because there are too few ppl on the planet with green, blue and amber/golden coloured eyes. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: If your formula for selecting the right national sports team includes your own personal standard of Englishness that you ask players to prove to you then you are a racist, bigoted, ignoramus. If you simply phrased something terribly then you can apologise and try harder. IMO it shold be where you or one of your parents were born, or if you've lived in that country for at least 7 years. As for V Radley, S Wane said that if he really wants to play for England then he can call him, and he might have a chance of selection. Jason Jones-Hughes was born in Oz to a Welsh born father, he decided to move to Wales to play for Wales in RU which he did. It would be better for Radley to play in England if he wants to represent England, but I would guess he would prefer to play for New South Wales Blues RL. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 hours ago, scotchy1 said: Do you qualify That's OK if you think the qualification process is OK, it was set up by some people with an opinion of what they considered acceptable, there are some parts of it I just cannot comprehend like living in a country for 3 years grants you eligibility, that can't be right. Be honest in tother code at the WC could you take the Japanese team seriously when you saw them lining up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: That's OK if you think the qualification process is OK, it was set up by some people with an opinion of what they considered acceptable, there are some parts of it I just cannot comprehend like living in a country for 3 years grants you eligibility, that can't be right. Be honest in tother code at the WC could you take the Japanese team seriously when you saw them lining up? Yes. That never entered my head. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: To refuse to pick a player because he didnt meet your personal standard of englishness is a pretty racist thing to do. It is naive to think that as some ethnic minority players play for england racial barriers and racist behaviour could not exist It’s not racist to not pick someone because they weren’t born in England, it’s something-ist (if you must categorise it) but not racist. However I can’t believe I’ve been drawn into this debate and will leave it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It absolutely is racist. If you are trying to argue something isnt racist because of your definition of race, you are going down a bad track. Are the Japanese a race? Chinese? Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I would prefer that we didn't categorize Wane as racist because of these comments. Let's remember we are discussing international sport here and so by definition we are speaking about people 'representing a nation'. He was clearly attempting to articulate his view that the English team should be made up English qualified players who have pride in the shirt and the team rather than someone who qualifies through heritage but who are only using England as a chance to get an international cap. I fully endorse this attitude. I 100% believe that he did not have people like Oledzki in mind when he spoke. But I do believe that he spoke very poorly and should not have used some of the terms he did and I hope that someone points this out to him so he can articulate himself better next time. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I would prefer that we didn't categorize Wane as racist because of these comments. Let's remember we are discussing international sport here and so by definition we are speaking about people 'representing a nation'. He was clearly attempting to articulate his view that the English team should be made up English qualified players who have pride in the shirt and the team rather than someone who qualifies through heritage but who are only using England as a chance to get an international cap. I fully endorse this attitude. I 100% believe that he did not have people like Oledzki in mind when he spoke. But I do believe that he spoke very poorly and should not have used some of the terms he did and I hope that someone points this out to him so he can articulate himself better next time. 100% hallelujah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It absolutely is racist. If you are trying to argue something isnt racist because of your definition of race, you are going down a bad track. It's perfectly possible to have a reasonable discussion about Shaun Wane's comments while agreeing that he might have chosen his words unwisely. The problem is, though, that there is always someone who is out to magnify those words and define someone as a racist when clearly they are not. And it's even worse when that person claims to have a superior knowledge of what is and isn't racism, while making insinuations against people who disagree with your particular point of view. If I could just give you a piece of gentle advice, I think you should pull your horns in a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Cool Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Even if he didn't mean to exclude all English players who weren't born in England (which is literally what he said) I'm not sure it's particularly smart or fair to rule out players with English parents who were raised in Oz either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: This apparently is a 'reasonable discussion' The reason I asked is because I'm reading Eddie Jones' autobiography at the moment, just read a part where he writes that the Japanese are a race. IMO they are not a race and neither are the French. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I’d love to know what “proof of Englishness” is in Wane’s head, by the way. It sounds so very stereotypical of a “statue protector”. The whole “buy in” is equally as strange. We’re not talking about England as a Tier Two nation here. We’re not a stepping stone in the way Ireland, Scotland and Wales are here and the south sea islands, Italy and Greece are for Australia and NZ. The rules are players can’t switch between Tier One nations so any player that sticks their hand up for England is making a pretty big decision anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh RL & RU watcher Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Why does it matter to you? I like to know about the people i feel an emotional attachment to, so I want to know some people's sexuality etc. Hull FC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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