Dunbar Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 minute ago, scotchy1 said: It is interesting that the 'acceptable view' is that, we ignore the words he actually used and invent our own in their place to ensure 'reasonable' people understand that racism isnt a factor Anyone stating that what he said had clear racist undertones 'should pull their horns in a little' and is 'being superior'. I'm interested in why it is clear and beyond question that Wane isnt racist (something I haven't actually ever accused him of)? And also why some of the views expressed on here cannot be racist or shouldn't be challenged? Because context is key. International sport is set adjacent to most parts of modern life because selection itself has its roots in national identity and 'representation'. Wane was being asked about Victor Radley (a player with an English father but who was born and brought up in Australia) being selected for England. I agree that Wane should not necessarily be the 'arbiter of Englishness' but I think it is appropriate in the context of Radley to ask the question of his motivation to play for England. I do not believe that asking this question is racist. It is within the remit of a national coach look at 'desire' and 'motivation' as well as ability. Now, look at the same scenario and the same question but replace Victor Radley with Mikolaj Oledzki. If Wane were to question his 'Englishness' and his motivation to play for England then I believe that would be racist. As with all things in life, you cannot label things in such a binary way and you have to take the context of statements into account when judging them. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Wanes comment will be borne from the influence of Graham Lowe, when Wigan played Manly in 87 Lowe only picked one overseas player, Graeme West and he was on the bench and never used. I have heard Wane comment on this fact before and it was part of Lowes strategy for the game, instilling pride in it being a British team taking on an Australian team. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It is interesting that the 'acceptable view' is that, we ignore the words he actually used and invent our own in their place to ensure 'reasonable' people understand that racism isnt a factor Far from ignoring them, we are now on our seventh page of discussing the words he used. 17 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Anyone stating that what he said had clear racist undertones 'should pull their horns in a little' and is 'being superior'. My advice actually relates to the way you interact with other posters in an accusatory style. I also criticised your apparent view that you understand the nature of racism better than anyone else on this thread, which I rather doubt. 19 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: It's also interesting that the problem, to use your words, is Wanes statement being highlighted and not him saying it in the first place. Clearly there was a problem of him using a form of words, because if there hadn't been we wouldn't be discussing them. But when you highlight a statement and blow it up out of context, it becomes all too easy to paint a false picture of the individual concerned. 22 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: I'm interested in why it is clear and beyond question that Wane isnt racist (something I haven't actually ever accused him of)? I've made the point that Shaun's words in this particular example were perhaps naive, but they were not racist 25 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: And also why some of the views expressed on here cannot be racist or shouldn't be challenged? You can challenge anyone's views as much as you like, but making wild accusations of racism against other posters will ultimately get you banned from the forum. I'm simply trying to discourage you from doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Wane didn't argue about Radleys motivation, he argued it on the basis of his national identity. It is perfectly possible that Radley feels incredible motivation to play for England but feels Australian. It is also perfectly possible that Radley feels 100% English but isnt really bothered about playing for them. I have no problem with Wane not picking a player who isnt motivated to play for England. But Wane didn't mention that. His argument was they Radley must prove his englishness and his dream was that he would win with purely english born players, because Wane is 'patriotic'. What he said was racist, I hope he did just phrase it poorly, but I'm also not sure why its incumbent upon me to ignore what he has actually said and parse it to something more palatable. Yes, I have said all along that he phrased it very poorly and (racist or not) it reflects very badly when there are players who were not born in England that are coming through the system and would be full of pride to represent England. I guess the difference between the two of us is that I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt on whether a poorly worded interview evidenced racism. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: Far from ignoring them, we are now on our seventh page of discussing the words he used. My advice actually relates to the way you interact with other posters in an accusatory style. I also criticised your apparent view that you understand the nature of racism better than anyone else on this thread, which I rather doubt. Clearly there was a problem of him using a form of words, because if there hadn't been we wouldn't be discussing them. But when you highlight a statement and blow it up out of context, it becomes all too easy to paint a false picture of the individual concerned. I've made the point that Shaun's words in this particular example were perhaps naive, but they were not racist You can challenge anyone's views as much as you like, but making wild accusations of racism against other posters will ultimately get you banned from the forum. I'm simply trying to discourage you from doing that. Can you not be naive but also racist (in terms of what you said, rather being a racist)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Cool Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Problem with him "using a form of words"?! Also known as he said something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Tre Cool said: Not as tedious as people dismissing any debate with a hint of progressivism attached to it as unnecessary outrage. Desperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Can this thread be locked? Half of it is utter drivel and belongs on the Independent website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLANTISMAN Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Does anyone on here actually know or has met Shaun? Passionate Englishman who will give 100% nothing wrong with that. Just what the doctor ordered IMHO Now please GIVE HIM SOME MATCHES:) Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tms Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Couldn't care less what he says as long as he doesn't pick his favourites and picks players in form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: I just cannot comprehend like living in a country for 3 years grants you eligibility, that can't be right. Be honest in tother code at the WC could you take the Japanese team seriously when you saw them lining up? It's ridiculous. Maybe 10 years but not 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manfred Mann Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 There is an argument to be made that not selecting foreign born English (or Australian) nationals for the country where they now reside would make these players available to play for second or third tier nations. The reason for doing that would be to promote the game in the second or third tier nations, especially in the context of the World Cup. In the instance of Oledski, he could be a vital member, and probably captain, of a Polish National side. In the instance of Tom Johnstone, he could join a very potent German backline that would include himself, Jimmy Keinhorst, and Kyle Feldt. Unfortunately too many developing nations have lost their potential national team stars to the Australian national team ( Serbia’s Tom Trbojevic, Jake Trbojevic and Nikola Cotric come to mind). We should not increase the number of lost development opportunities by selecting the likes of Gdańsk born prop Mikolaj Oledski in the English national team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 48 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: Martyn, could you provide an example of where I have accused any other poster of being racist? I'd also ask, if someone were to be being racist, is it not encouraged for them to be called out? You have come very close without technically overstepping the mark. You were skirting the touchline while just managing not to cross it. If you believe someone has made a racist comment, the correct response on this forum is to report it to the moderators, who will then deal with the offender. On the other hand, if you call a fellow poster a racist when clearly that accusation isn't justified, then it is you who will be reported and dealt with by the moderators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I don't particularly like Shaun Wane, I dislike his tactics, demeanour and the how that translates to the teams he has coached. However I'm also not stupid enough to think that he was saying anything other than "no aussies that aren't good enough for Australia please" by his comments. Any balanced person can see that his comments were about Australians - a common complaint from certain sections that had been levelled at the previous coach and directly relevant to the player he was being asked about. His words weren't erudite, I can forgive him for that - I bet he'll get an Email from the RFL saying not to use that terminology. I won't accept people claiming it was racism for the sake of hysteria and not helping advance the progress against actual racism (whilst arguably sending it backwards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Eddie said: Can this thread be locked? Half of it is utter drivel and belongs on the Independent website. The other half I haven’t understood at all! We’re gonna win the WC guys so chill ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: This is an honest question, why do you believe it beyond question, that Wane meant something other than what he actually said? We know people do have sentiments like Wane expressed, why is it impossible that he believes them too? He was talking about Aussies mate.... we all know it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: This is an honest question, why do you believe it beyond question, that Wane meant something other than what he actually said? We know people do have sentiments like Wane expressed, why is it impossible that he believes them too? Because I can use my rational mind, assess all the factors, and come to a reasonable conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Well , I’ve just read all these pages and then read the original article and I’m not sure what all the fuss is about . Maybe he articulated badly but there’s nothing sinister there and nothing he hasn’t expressed before .... And he’s the coach so he’ll stand or fall on his decisions , but let’s give him a chance for gods sake . Let’s see who he picks and how we go . He’ll do what he thinks is best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just now, scotchy1 said: What factors? What factors are there that means we should ignore what he actually said, and instead decide he meant something else? Is it just Wane that we turn a blind eye to? The factors of who he's speaking about (an Australian), who he's speaking to (an Australian journalist) and who's comments he's responding to (an Australian newspapers). That is all on top of the general topic of selection for England which for the Bennett era was dominated by "NRL/Aussie Heritage" favouritism accusations. I've seen nothing to suggest that Wane is racist in anything he's put out and said as a player or coach. So why would I assume that from this now when all the evidence is contrary? I've been in the Labour party for the past 5 years and believe me there's been more discussion about what constitutes racism and what is unerudite terminology than this story will ever generate. A weird desire to find racism everywhere evokes a McCarthyist "reds in your soup" vibe that is frankly damaging to any real cases of racism. Its called being a rational and intelligent individual. If you want to start a thread about racism in the game go ahead, please don't hijack the cause to slate Shaun Wane on an internet forum. If you're not capable of that then I doubt you'll get many to agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: He was specifically talking about Victor Radley. And Radley's an Aussie, that's my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMEGA Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Dunbar said: I would prefer that we didn't categorize Wane as racist because of these comments. Let's remember we are discussing international sport here and so by definition we are speaking about people 'representing a nation'. He was clearly attempting to articulate his view that the English team should be made up English qualified players who have pride in the shirt and the team rather than someone who qualifies through heritage but who are only using England as a chance to get an international cap. I fully endorse this attitude. I 100% believe that he did not have people like Oledzki in mind when he spoke. But I do believe that he spoke very poorly and should not have used some of the terms he did and I hope that someone points this out to him so he can articulate himself better next time. That’s not enough for Scotchy1 who obviously thinks that the Rugby League’s international eligibility & qualification rules are a precursor to the UKs new immigration laws. Get a grip Scotchy1 fella, you’ve taken this way too far and must surely be bordering on libellous insults toward a bloke you don’t even know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: FIrstly, i havent said Wane is racist, what he said is. Would you think that if Want believes exactly what he said, that its ok because Radley is Australian? Would it be different if he was talking about say, Masi Matongo? That people not born in England should have their commitment and motivation as English people questioned is a pretty common racist trope. Yes it would be different if talking about Masi Matongo or Oledski. Only someone completely moronic and able to work in (somewhat ironically) black and white would argue otherwise. If he had there would be much bigger uproar and you wouldn't have to be here scraping some barrels. Radley, and indeed most other Australians will have their commitment to England questioned -especially if their commitment only appears after basically giving up on Australia. Indeed Radley was questioned by the Ozzie media to the point that he then said his commitment was to NSW and Australia. Thats, fine, but we really don't want that attitude in the English national team if we want to win anything against Australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 35 minutes ago, scotchy1 said: So its ok to demand white people born in Australia to prove their Englishness? Should we ask John Barnes to prove his Englishness? If John Barnes was an Aussie loose forward in 2020 pretending he was English then yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pie tries Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Dunbar said: I haven't heard this podcast. Can I ask, was Wane speaking about Oledski when he said this? No. SW obviously means he will only pick players who have come through English system - as the Polish born lad has - and he will be welcomed by all when he wears the England shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Just now, Pie tries said: No. SW obviously means he will only pick players who have come through English system - as the Polish born lad has - and he will be welcomed by all when he wears the England shirt. So, no Gareth Widdop then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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