Championship clubs still in deadlock

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Not really Harry

I don't want the Bulls to be promoted right now, even with the 'carrot' of the funding. 

Didn't you learn anything from your last SL experience? Even getting promoted in October meant paying over the odds for players that weren't worth the money. That left you in the sticky stuff when you were relegated and had a bunch of disinterested players in the Championship.

Getting promoted in December would only make that ten times worse! 

Further to the last post, the bit I have highlighted that is not true, Leigh brought in 19 new player's at a cisf of 1.68M to which every scribe and expert predicted they would easily win the Chanpionship, what is true though is your word "disinterested" the majority of those player's were an absolute disgrace in their attitude and performance they held out their hands to recieve their contract payments but gave nothing in return finishing 5th, that's the trouble with contracts same pay if you put the effort in or not, I would say we would have seen a very different attitude if the pay had been performance related.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

So it seems that you want the Championship to start up - potentially bankrupting half of the clubs in this league - so that you can get promoted just so that you'll be able to bank £1.5 million... so that when you inevitably come bottom of SL 2021 and get relegated back to the Championship you'll have a decent nest egg of Sky money?

No I want to prosper and stay in SL, I know where we sit in the order of clubs and we are never going to be a top 5 club, we may do a Salford of last season but I would settle for a long existance in SL striving to be the best we can possibly be, which brings me to an earlier statement you made........

22 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

But, in normal times, then I think a strong case can be made for a viable Championship that does not necessarily end with promotion i.e a completion with validity in its own right.

Have lost all ambition for your club Paul?

Like someone eluded to earlier most clubs in the Championship have no desire to complete for promotion they want to just be good enough to avoid relegation is that the basis of 'Viable Championship' no it isn't that is why we must retain P&R.

I don't know how old you are Paul, but as long as I have been involved in any sport or pastime that has enough teams to require a divisional set-up there has always been P&R between the divisions, be that Rugby, Cricket or Football, Table Tennis, Squash, even pub games like Darts and Dominoes, Snooker and Pool and a whole lot more. It is part of the British psyche to be rewarded for "on field" acheivement and penalised for failure, I don't give a fig what they do in other countries like the NRL or in foriegn sports members of this forum relate to like the NBA, NHL, MLB etc that is their way not the British way, all our major sports still have P&R and long may the  British Rugby League maintain the same.

Any club that gets promoted will have earned that right, if it is my club great, if they get relegated then it is something I accept it is the way it should be, the British way. 

 

[paulwalker71]

I was first taken to Odsal as a small boy by my Dad in the late 1960s so that tells you how long I've been following my club! I've seen a few ups and plenty of downs my time, as you'll appreciate!

I don't think I've 'lost all ambition', Harry, but I have grown weary of false dawns and crackpot owners who promise the earth! Right now I'll settle for stability and viability, and that likely means a few seasons (at least) in the Championship. It may be that we never again climb to the top division. although of course I would always want to have the opportunity if it ever became sustainable and achievable.

What I don't want to do is (again) go down that path of 'must get promoted at all costs'. It didn't work for us when we had Marc Green at the helm in 2015 (was it?). If we had beaten Wakefield in that MPG we'd likely have been relegated the season afterwards anyway, as we didn't have - and couldn't have created - a SL squad in the available timeframe. 

That's why I don't believe in promotion / relegation between SL and the Championship. I don't it works between a full-time professional league and a largely part-time league. But that's not a topic for this thread...

[Harry Stottle]

37 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

A nest egg that on top of an unprecedented half a million pound parachute payment still couldn't stop the club threatening to tear up contracts and nearly going bust at the end of the season.

Tommy, I have said why those contracts were torn up, I have a clear big advantage over you I watched week after week those charlatans going through the motions, I would have proposed a hefty jail sentence for thievery or lining them up against a wall they were an utter disgrace to their profession.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy, I have said why those contracts were torn up, I have a clear big advantage over you I watched week after week those charlatans going through the motions, I would have proposed a hefty jail sentence for thievery or lining them up against a wall they were an utter disgrace to their profession.

Harry I watched a team that won the Super League title the previous year nearly get relegated, TWICE! I understand completely the feeling that players aren't respecting or even good enough for the shirt and that they should have they're contracts torn up, but I also know that isn't how professional sport works. 

Bad investments are the responsibility of the people making those investments.

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I was first taken to Odsal as a small boy by my Dad in the late 1960s so that tells you how long I've been following my club! I've seen a few ups and plenty of downs my time, as you'll appreciate!

I don't think I've 'lost all ambition', Harry, but I have grown weary of false dawns and crackpot owners who promise the earth! Right now I'll settle for stability and viability, and that likely means a few seasons (at least) in the Championship. It may be that we never again climb to the top division. although of course I would always want to have the opportunity if it ever became sustainable and achievable.

What I don't want to do is (again) go down that path of 'must get promoted at all costs'. It didn't work for us when we had Marc Green at the helm in 2015 (was it?). If we had beaten Wakefield in that MPG we'd likely have been relegated the season afterwards anyway, as we didn't have - and couldn't have created - a SL squad in the available timeframe. 

That's why I don't believe in promotion / relegation between SL and the Championship. I don't it works between a full-time professional league and a largely part-time league. But that's not a topic for this thread...

Thanks for the reply Paul,

With all due respect since the Bulls were relegated you have only played in the Championship that had a gateway to promotion albeit you narrowly missed out in '15  you have not really challenged since, I would imagine if you got to the position in that you headed the division for a couple or three seasons and the door was shut you may just well change your opinion and would seek the reward you would have in my opinion have rightly earned.

 

[Harry Stottle]

39 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Harry I watched a team that won the Super League title the previous year nearly get relegated, TWICE! I understand completely the feeling that players aren't respecting or even good enough for the shirt and that they should have they're contracts torn up, but I also know that isn't how professional sport works. 

Bad investments are the responsibility of the people making those investments.

Totally agree with your last sentence but on player's who have a good 'reputation' and no injuries to hold them back you would think that there is a possibility of one bad signing but the majority of 19 to prove inadequate is pure bad luck.

That team should have had the desired effect and won promotion.

[Harry Stottle]

I forgot to say Tommy, in the days of performance related pay for a win, draw or loss the attitudes were far different, I know you are to young to have experienced that, so you will have to take my word for it.

[Wolford6]

2 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

 

I don't want the Bulls to be promoted right now, even with the 'carrot' of the funding.

Getting promoted in December would only make that ten times worse! 

If Kear got £1.5million, there's quite a lot of players he could persuade to come out of retirement.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Totally agree with your last sentence but on player's who have a good 'reputation' and no injuries to hold them back you would think that there is a possibility of one bad signing but the majority of 19 to prove inadequate is pure bad luck.

That team should have had the desired effect and won promotion.

Its often a continuously compounding effect. The squad Leeds had in 2016, 2018 and started 2019 should not have done as badly as they did. But each poor performance made things worse. Its telling that of the 2016 debacle squad, only 1 hooker turned that side into the 2nd best in the regular season and Super League champions. Sometimes it just doesn't come off.

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

I forgot to say Tommy, in the days of performance related pay for a win, draw or loss the attitudes were far different, I know you are to young to have experienced that, so you will have to take my word for it.

I appreciate that H. Several mates have played up to national 1 RU (3rd tier) and below and win/loss payments are still a thing.

Even now in the professional era players still get win or performance related bonuses. 

You can't be a "professional" club and spend those levels on wages and still maintain the "win/loss chairman in the dressing room" mentality. There's a reason that is consigned to the tinpot small leagues of most sports.

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its often a continuously compounding effect. The squad Leeds had in 2016, 2018 and started 2019 should not have done as badly as they did. But each poor performance made things worse. Its telling that of the 2016 debacle squad, only 1 hooker turned that side into the 2nd best in the regular season and Super League champions. Sometimes it just doesn't come off.

I appreciate that H. Several mates have played up to national 1 RU (3rd tier) and below and win/loss payments are still a thing.

Even now in the professional era players still get win or performance related bonuses. 

You can't be a "professional" club and spend those levels on wages and still maintain the "win/loss chairman in the dressing room" mentality. There's a reason that is consigned to the tinpot small leagues of most sports.

Yes the 'Chairman in the Dressing Room" with an extra £20 if you win this game and on the terraces you could sense when that happened, contracts also ended the day's of the 'minders' those player's who would protect his teams star players for they would be the one's instrumental in getting them winning pay, and of course the opposition player's who's purpose was to stop the stars performing in the first place.

It was a tough place to be then.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes the 'Chairman in the Dressing Room" with an extra £20 if you win this game and on the terraces you could sense when that happened, contracts also ended the day's of the 'minders' those player's who would protect his teams star players for they would be the one's instrumental in getting them winning pay, and of course the opposition player's who's purpose was to stop the stars performing in the first place.

It was a tough place to be then.

Tough, but incompatible with being a fully professional sports team.

Leigh could have and could still decide to go back to doing that, but they wouldn't be automatically one of the best teams in the league as a consequence. People like security.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Tough, but incompatible with being a fully professional sports team.

Leigh could have and could still decide to go back to doing that, but they wouldn't be automatically one of the best teams in the league as a consequence. People like security.

There are a lot of lads on appearance money only in the Championship and Div1.

And this season a SL player turned out for nothing, a French lad at a Canadian team............... If you believe that

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

There are a lot of lads on appearance money only in the Championship and Div1.

And this season a SL player turned out for nothing, a French lad at a Canadian team............... If you believe that

Appearance only money is why most of those clubs are very hesitant to restart soon without crowds.

[Harry Stottle]

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Appearance only money is why most of those clubs are very hesitant to restart soon without crowds.

Off course, and I have no problem with that, that is why it would be insanity to go to a majority vote of whether to play on or not this season, just supposing it went in favour of playing on it could be the end of some clubs. That is why I say the RFL should give a choice vote, close the doors for the season or play on for promotion - which they will have agreed with the SL - and reorganise the league structure and play offs for those who wish to play on.

PS I wonder how much your club wants Fev to play on, it will obviously be to Mr Hetherington's advantage.

[Robthegasman]

I am detecting a rift between fellow Championship/Championship 1 clubs and fans.

[Tommygilf]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Off course, and I have no problem with that, that is why it would be insanity to go to a majority vote of whether to play on or not this season, just supposing it went in favour of playing on it could be the end of some clubs. That is why I say the RFL should give a choice vote, close the doors for the season or play on for promotion - which they will have agreed with the SL - and reorganise the league structure and play offs for those who wish to play on.

PS I wonder how much your club wants Fev to play on, it will obviously be to Mr Hetherington's advantage.

Its an all or nothing thing Harry, if some clubs do play on whilst some don't it won't be for the championship. That doesn't stop them playing on but fundamentally changes what they are playing on for. Everyone does want to play on, but crowds are clearly the issue here. SL are preparing for that to take till the end of September/October. The disparity within the Championship means that not all teams can take this burden for anything like the same amount of time. Lowest common denominator finances may mean a mid September or even later start. If I were Leigh for example I'd be trying to be as accommodating as possible as you need the others to vote to continue to give you guys a chance of earning promotion. 

As for Leeds, its swings and roundabouts I suppose. As productive as the relationship with Fev has been, with midweek fixtures likely for the end of the year I think we'll like having the full squad at our disposal - especially given the cross contamination risks.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

I was first taken to Odsal as a small boy by my Dad in the late 1960s so that tells you how long I've been following my club! I've seen a few ups and plenty of downs my time, as you'll appreciate!

I don't think I've 'lost all ambition', Harry, but I have grown weary of false dawns and crackpot owners who promise the earth! Right now I'll settle for stability and viability, and that likely means a few seasons (at least) in the Championship. It may be that we never again climb to the top division. although of course I would always want to have the opportunity if it ever became sustainable and achievable.

What I don't want to do is (again) go down that path of 'must get promoted at all costs'. It didn't work for us when we had Marc Green at the helm in 2015 (was it?). If we had beaten Wakefield in that MPG we'd likely have been relegated the season afterwards anyway, as we didn't have - and couldn't have created - a SL squad in the available timeframe. 

That's why I don't believe in promotion / relegation between SL and the Championship. I don't it works between a full-time professional league and a largely part-time league. But that's not a topic for this thread...

Would you still have this opinion Paul if the Bulls had a 15,000 capacity LSV stadium in Bradford at their disposal and an enthusiastic benefactor willing to bankroll them ?

[Harry Stottle]

18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its an all or nothing thing Harry, if some clubs do play on whilst some don't it won't be for the championship. That doesn't stop them playing on but fundamentally changes what they are playing on for. Everyone does want to play on, but crowds are clearly the issue here. SL are preparing for that to take till the end of September/October. The disparity within the Championship means that not all teams can take this burden for anything like the same amount of time. Lowest common denominator finances may mean a mid September or even later start. If I were Leigh for example I'd be trying to be as accommodating as possible as you need the others to vote to continue to give you guys a chance of earning promotion. 

As for Leeds, its swings and roundabouts I suppose. As productive as the relationship with Fev has been, with midweek fixtures likely for the end of the year I think we'll like having the full squad at our disposal - especially given the cross contamination risks.

Why does it have to not constitute playing for promotion, at no other time would any number of teams be allowed to "give up" fixtures, you are relating your judgement to normal circumstances, if the season gets back underway it will be anything but normal circumstances, especially if with the league's blessing clubs are not required to fullfil the fixture list, there would be no problem in playing for promotion, it will not effect those not competing.

As per the second topic, I have always considered that Fev are the favourites this season, they have bought well and with the influx of the Leeds player's that will assist them greatly, but if as you say happens then that would give my club a better opportunity of promotion, bring it on.

But, I do not think what you say will be the case, Leeds will have injuries they want to have game time before subjecting them back into the first team, but Thinking about it Leigh although they have not utilised the process are still in DR with St Helens, so the same could happen.

[Harry Stottle]

33 minutes ago, Robthegasman said:

I am detecting a rift between fellow Championship/Championship 1 clubs and fans.

Please share Rob!

[GUBRATS]

34 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its an all or nothing thing Harry, if some clubs do play on whilst some don't it won't be for the championship. That doesn't stop them playing on but fundamentally changes what they are playing on for. Everyone does want to play on, but crowds are clearly the issue here. SL are preparing for that to take till the end of September/October. The disparity within the Championship means that not all teams can take this burden for anything like the same amount of time. Lowest common denominator finances may mean a mid September or even later start. If I were Leigh for example I'd be trying to be as accommodating as possible as you need the others to vote to continue to give you guys a chance of earning promotion. 

As for Leeds, its swings and roundabouts I suppose. As productive as the relationship with Fev has been, with midweek fixtures likely for the end of the year I think we'll like having the full squad at our disposal - especially given the cross contamination risks.

Not for this thread , put SL attempting to play out a full 22 game season is as daft as the Championship resuming 

[paulwalker71]

13 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Would you still have this opinion Paul if the Bulls had a 15,000 capacity LSV stadium in Bradford at their disposal and an enthusiastic benefactor willing to bankroll them ?

Well, we haven't - and almost certainly never will have. If such things were going to happen they'd have happened long ago. So it's a moot point...

The more relevant question for the immediate future is what happens if - and it could easily happen - the season restarts but Leigh end up not getting promoted?

Are we going to see toys thrown out of the pram? like last time?

It's all very well betting the house on promotion, but there are no guarantees. Perhaps London will beat both Leigh and Featherstone to it. It wouldn't be the first time they've surprised people who expected to be the promoted team

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Well, we haven't - and almost certainly never will have. If such things were going to happen they'd have happened long ago. So it's a moot point...

The more relevant question for the immediate future is what happens if - and it could easily happen - the season restarts but Leigh end up not getting promoted?

Are we going to see toys thrown out of the pram? like last time?

It's all very well betting the house on promotion, but there are no guarantees. Perhaps London will beat both Leigh and Featherstone to it. It wouldn't be the first time they've surprised people who expected to be the promoted team

Not by me Paul, no toys escaping from my pram, I just relish the opportunity to compete for promotion, may the best club win.

[Griff]

19 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

For the smaller clubs who operate at a more community-based level the majority of sponsors don't anticipate any real commercial benefit from their support. Often their businesses are embedded within these communities and, if they are able (moot point) are already being supportive about 2021, I hear.

Trade in Heavy Woollens must be good, Johnny.

Global warming must be slowing down.

[GUBRATS]

6 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Well, we haven't - and almost certainly never will have. If such things were going to happen they'd have happened long ago. So it's a moot point...

The more relevant question for the immediate future is what happens if - and it could easily happen - the season restarts but Leigh end up not getting promoted?

Are we going to see toys thrown out of the pram? like last time?

It's all very well betting the house on promotion, but there are no guarantees. Perhaps London will beat both Leigh and Featherstone to it. It wouldn't be the first time they've surprised people who expected to be the promoted team

It's not a moot point though , it is THE primary reason you have why Bradford are financially unsuited for SL ATM , Odsal isn't viable , playing at Dewsbury isn't viable , the LSV was built for SL , that is a fact , it works in SL much better than outside SL for Leigh , that is why Dereck will only support Leigh while SL is an option , if it becomes unavailable , that support will dissapear , as I've no doubt it would from several clubs in SL now