Championship clubs still in deadlock

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

I think that your figures are at least a season out of date. These applied to the says of the 8's surely. The distribution is much flatter now I believe.

They said "more even" but in the opaque nature of RL finances that could mean a few quid either way. I think most will still acknowledge that Leigh, London, Toulouse and Fev are the biggest spenders backed up by the biggest central distribution.

[stevevalerugby]

1 hour ago, SL17 said:

I respect your opinion, but did anyone complain about funding/level playing fields when the Super 8’s was in existence and taking clubs on with funding of £1.8m.

I get what you are saying but if funding for the championship was equal across the board then the teams who are currently at the lower end of the table would at least have a chance of rubbing shoulders with the SL teams as it is at the moment they are playing against teams in the championship who are so far ahead in regards of money they have no chance.  And to Harry Stottle if these benefactors still want their teams to be ex super league players whose contracts are more expensive then they can still pump money in especially now that there is a 1 up 1 down system so if they are the best championship side they will go up.

[stevevalerugby]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They said "more even" but in the opaque nature of RL finances that could mean a few quid either way. I think most will still acknowledge that Leigh, London, Toulouse and Fev are the biggest spenders backed up by the biggest central distribution.

Yes but when central funding gives one team 850k and another 150k the lower teams haven't got a hope.  And i am all for benifactors putting into the club to make it better but surley the RFL wants all clubs to do well especially if the Championship is cut away from funding from Sky and needs to find its own revenue stream.  The closer the teams are in respect of being able to compete the better the product will be.  I watch some football and have found that championship games are far better to watch as the outcome could go either way where as premiership its always 6 clubs and sometimes 1 or 2 will fluke a season. 

Lets get the championship worth watching and get a deal where it is shown preferably on terrestrial tv where we can get the public at large interested.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, stevevalerugby said:

Yes but when central funding gives one team 850k and another 150k the lower teams haven't got a hope.  And i am all for benifactors putting into the club to make it better but surley the RFL wants all clubs to do well especially if the Championship is cut away from funding from Sky and needs to find its own revenue stream.  The closer the teams are in respect of being able to compete the better the product will be.  I watch some football and have found that championship games are far better to watch as the outcome could go either way where as premiership its always 6 clubs and sometimes 1 or 2 will fluke a season. 

Lets get the championship worth watching and get a deal where it is shown preferably on terrestrial tv where we can get the public at large interested.

To be fair a lot of the Championship is worth watching. The main problem is that disparity, we have effectively 2 leagues within one. In RL between the bottom of SL to the bottom of League 1 we have what football has in 8 tiers compressed into 2 and a bit. 

The obvious solution to that is to bring new teams into the whole structure so that weaker sides are naturally pushed down and competition as a whole increases. Thats not a slight against the weaker clubs its just a factual reality.

[Blind side johnny]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They said "more even" but in the opaque nature of RL finances that could mean a few quid either way. I think most will still acknowledge that Leigh, London, Toulouse and Fev are the biggest spenders backed up by the biggest central distribution.

I don't believe that the 850k you originally quoted is anything like correct now, though, unless you have figures that say so. Out by a six figure sum if my informal understanding is correct.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Blind side johnny said:

I don't believe that the 850k you originally quoted is anything like correct now, though, unless you have figures that say so. Out by a six figure sum if my informal understanding is correct.

Fair enough that was the figures I've heard before and they may have changed for this season.

[paulwalker71]

20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

To be fair a lot of the Championship is worth watching. The main problem is that disparity, we have effectively 2 leagues within one. In RL between the bottom of SL to the bottom of League 1 we have what football has in 8 tiers compressed into 2 and a bit. 

The obvious solution to that is to bring new teams into the whole structure so that weaker sides are naturally pushed down and competition as a whole increases. Thats not a slight against the weaker clubs its just a factual reality.

Yes, I think that's certainly true

In a way you've got two categories in the Championship.

There are those teams that really, REALLY (especially in the case of Leigh ) want to get out of it. So, Leigh, Featherstone. London, Toulouse - and if certain factors could be aligned - Widnes and Bradford.

Then the rest of the teams just want to stay in that League, without any real burning ambition to move up to SL.

That's not a situation that is going to lead to agreement in the current impasse. But changing it isn't going to happen overnight!

In the long term the best solution would be to try and get to two full-time professional leagues of 10-12 teams each with promotion and relegation between. Then one or more leagues of semi-pro teams with promotion and relegation between themselves, and the option of those teams being able to become full-time pro and move up to the other category. 

Otherwise you end up trying to mix oil and water...

[paulwalker71]

7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The problem is you are still trying to mix oil and water. 

There arent 20, or 24 clubs capable of being full time pro clubs. 

2 leagues of 12 are no different to what we have already had and the championship didnt seem much more sustainable. Would dropping two clubs really make it all that more attractive?

I can see the argument that if you go to 10 then you have a pretty competitive 2nd tier but is a rebadged championship going to attract any TV revenue? If it doesnt we arent moving forward. All it would do is cut off the middle layer of championship clubs and put them in a really small competition. Does that move us any further forward?

The fact is we have spent the last 25 years moving that cut off point up and down a bit and it hasnt really made a huge difference to the attractiveness of the 2nd tier. 
For me the number of clubs we have in each division is a really complex question which needs to strike a difficult balance but in the end, it becomes a little irrelevant when we have so few clubs capable of being top SL clubs. 

There is very little benefit to us rotating a bunch of heartland clubs getting 4-7k averages and not running academies. Its damaging clubs and its damaging competitions. 

There is an obvious question here, how much call, really, is there for an inferior SL? The answer is not much. It gets proven time and time again. Even after structuring such a big big part of our game around the very narrow area of top of championship bottom of SL we really havent seen much in terms of results. 

That's why I said that it can't be solved overnight. 

I agree - at the moment - we don't have those 20-24 clubs. We have 16-ish. Ottawa could be another and I guess Newcastle could aspire to be another. Then....???

But until we can somehow square that circle we are always going to have 4-6 clubs in the second tier who are going to be busting a gut - and perhaps busting themselves - to get into the top tier. 

What do you suggest? Those clubs aren't going to 'settle' for being in the Championship and, frankly, why should they when they see Wakefield and Salford in SL when they are not?

[CanadianRugger]

1 minute ago, paulwalker71 said:

That's why I said that it can't be solved overnight. 

I agree - at the moment - we don't have those 20-24 clubs. We have 16-ish. Ottawa could be another and I guess Newcastle could aspire to be another. Then....???

But until we can somehow square that circle we are always going to have 4-6 clubs in the second tier who are going to be busting a gut - and perhaps busting themselves - to get into the top tier. 

What do you suggest? Those clubs aren't going to 'settle' for being in the Championship and, frankly, why should they when they see Wakefield and Salford in SL when they are not?

The entire system is ridiculous and is a drain on the professional game.  The fact we've arbitrarily decided that 12 teams is the magic number of clubs in SL is well.... extremely limiting.  

Ditch promotion/relegation and immediately move Leigh, Toulouse and London to Super League.  Bring in others provided they can afford to go full-time, charge expansion fees, etc. 

Start running the game like an actual professional sport and stop letting it be beholden to a bunch of amateur clubs that play out of a park.

[TboneFromTO]

9 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

The entire system is ridiculous and is a drain on the professional game.  The fact we've arbitrarily decided that 12 teams is the magic number of clubs in SL is well.... extremely limiting.  

Ditch promotion/relegation and immediately move Leigh, Toulouse and London to Super League.  Bring in others provided they can afford to go full-time, charge expansion fees, etc. 

Start running the game like an actual professional sport and stop letting it be beholden to a bunch of amateur clubs that play out of a park.

I don't disagree nessecarily, but what about those clubs who have applied to the league structure seeing it as a route to the top division?  Ottawa say it will take some time sure. But I'm confident it's in their long term planning - and while I don't know much about NYs current position I assume that they are somewhere in between Torontos path (as fast as possible) and Ottawa's (slow build)

Fwiw I like PnR - it adds a stake to losing. 

[Blind side johnny]

12 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

The entire system is ridiculous and is a drain on the professional game.  The fact we've arbitrarily decided that 12 teams is the magic number of clubs in SL is well.... extremely limiting.  

Ditch promotion/relegation and immediately move Leigh, Toulouse and London to Super League.  Bring in others provided they can afford to go full-time, charge expansion fees, etc. 

Start running the game like an actual professional sport and stop letting it be beholden to a bunch of amateur clubs that play out of a park.

It isn't and they don't.

Are you actually based in Canada and, if so, have you visited any of these "amateur clubs" at all?

[paulwalker71]

17 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

The entire system is ridiculous and is a drain on the professional game.  The fact we've arbitrarily decided that 12 teams is the magic number of clubs in SL is well.... extremely limiting.  

Ditch promotion/relegation and immediately move Leigh, Toulouse and London to Super League.  Bring in others provided they can afford to go full-time, charge expansion fees, etc. 

Start running the game like an actual professional sport and stop letting it be beholden to a bunch of amateur clubs that play out of a park.

It's not really that simple CR

If it really were are binary as 'fully professional outfits in top quality stadia' vs 'amateur clubs that play out of a park' then I might agree. But it isn't. Featherstone, Halifax, Newcastle, Widnes, even Doncaster have stadia that are the equal or better than several SL grounds, and at least a couple of them are already professional or could be if they had Sky money. 

Then there is the enigma that is Bradford

And the number of clubs in SL is clearly limited by the 'pot' that has to be shared around the clubs in that division - hence the desperate wish to keep Toronto in there so the slices of the pie are bigger. Common sense says that £x million shared 11 ways is more attracted by the same amount split into 16.

[stevevalerugby]

1 hour ago, CanadianRugger said:

The entire system is ridiculous and is a drain on the professional game.  The fact we've arbitrarily decided that 12 teams is the magic number of clubs in SL is well.... extremely limiting.  

Ditch promotion/relegation and immediately move Leigh, Toulouse and London to Super League.  Bring in others provided they can afford to go full-time, charge expansion fees, etc. 

Start running the game like an actual professional sport and stop letting it be beholden to a bunch of amateur clubs that play out of a park.

I'm sure clubs that have been running for over a hundred years would disagree and lets be honest if Toronto didnt have a cash cow you would be in the same position.  Sorry you wouldn't be able to play out of a park as you wouldn't have anybody to play with.  And why Leigh, Toulouse and London im sure  Bradford, Featherstone or Halifax could be just as good if funded the same.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

There arent 20, or 24 clubs capable of being full time pro clubs. 

There aren't enough players of the standard required for 20 or 24 full time clubs without diluting the quality of the standard the present teams play at.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

What do you suggest? Those clubs aren't going to 'settle' for being in the Championship and, frankly, why should they when they see Wakefield and Salford in SL when they are not?

This is the whole point isn't it, it us nust that some will not accept it.

[TboneFromTO]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Well there is because we have more than 20 clubs now. 

We couldn't have 20 at SL level right now but the question is much more complex than that

There will only ever be enough quality that an organisation can hold.  I think the UK is knee capping growth by a 12 team top division

I also don't believe there aren't enough players for a larger comp.  If certain rules were amended there would be plenty!

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It isnt the whole point. It's a tiny, barely significant part if it.

If Leigh replace Wakefield the effect on the game as a whole is negligible. 

 But it won't be to Leigh, Fev, London, Toulouse Bradford etc.

[TboneFromTO]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. SL, quality wise isnt at the level it should be. 

And that falls solely on SL.  If we were to allow more imports from aus png Tonga etc would we attract higher quality talent?  Would a higher salary cap attract higher talent? Would those things create a more entertaining product?

Would more youngsters stay involved and develop of there were more opportunities?  

There are roughly 300 - 400 SL playing positions -  and England alone can't fill them all with enough talent.  allow more overseas players, expand the league size and create opportunity and create growth.

 

[Oldbear]

A comment was made earlier that replacing Wakefield with Leigh wouldn’t change the game as a whole, I’m not so sure. Not picking on Wakefield, because the same could virtually be said about Salford, but Leigh seems to be ahead on a number of fronts, give them Wakefield’s Sky money and I suspect that in 5 years time Leigh would be quite a way ahead. I think we could get to 16-18 full time clubs quite easily, probably playing in conferences, outside of that the part time clubs, or those reliant on DR to field a strong team, would be better off in a separate comp, rather than the annual scramble to avoid relegation/survive.

[Harry Stottle]

29 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The game comes before them.

Not to the fans, owners and administrators of those clubs, remember the old saying "Charity begins at home" it does happen.

Scotchy, I applaud your compassion for the game because obviously you put it far far above your club, but I ain't following you I have been in and around the Leigh club for near on 6o years having suffered far far more downs than ups and I still can't keep away.

If in recent years Leigh had been instrumental in replacing any club in SL including Leeds and Warrington when they were in trouble I would have been overjoyed I couldn't understand the sentiment that these clubs can't be allowed to be relegated after all they would have only been 'furloughed' for a season

[Harry Stottle]

23 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think the quota needs looking at. I dont see the point in having this quota for Toronto and then complaining they are taking from the British pool.

However, the lower leagues in Australia don't produce a huge amount of players better than we can produce. I wouldnt argue that we need more imports, we just need better quality. And that costs a lot of money. 

If we expand the size of the league, that also means we are taking the next best overseas players and next best british talent, it is undoubtedly going to spread, rather than concentrate that talent. 

The game needs to produce more talent, and growing the size of SL is a part of that as well. But it needs to be timed right and managed well

Hallelujah, we have found some common ground - well nearly.

But I do not see the answer in creating clubs in Virgin Territories that are not going to add to producing more talent of the required quality for a very very long time, and that falls directly what you describe in your 3rd paragraph

[Harry Stottle]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

Ah well, your support of the game would not be missed. Because it doesnt exist. 

Off course it would, I contrbute to the game just through the turnstiles these days, how do you expand the sport? Honest question.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Nor does Leigh taking the players Wigan dont want. 

Or even Leeds if they are better than the ones on our roster, don't all clubs do that? 

I did say virgin territories in tfe previous mail, not club.

[Cheadle Leyther]

As previously stated, there are 2 divisions within the championship. So why don’t the 6 or 7 teams that are interested in playing again this season play each other home and away if possible, giving 10 or 12 matches plus the play offs, with 1 promoted via grand final giving a 13 team superleague next season. I presume those 7 teams could be Toulouse, Leigh, Fev, London, Widnes, Bradford and Fax or York.

[paulwalker71]

2 minutes ago, Cheadle Leyther said:

 I presume those 7 teams could be Toulouse, Leigh, Fev, London, Widnes, Bradford and Fax or York.

Those 7 teams would reduce to 3 or even 2 if fans cannot attend.

It really does come down to that singular question. Can games be played in front of paying fans or do they need to be played behind closed doors?