Rupert Prince Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 8 hours ago, M j M said: I don't really see how two clubs the size of Wigan and Wigan Athletic can't generate enough to ensure the stadium generates profits. The costs of the build are now irrelevant as presumably any remaining debts from its construction will be expunged if Wigan Athletic follow the administration process through to an obvious end. If it was bought by the RL club it would have to cover running costs+maintenance+cost of purchase(*); if retained by phoenix soccer club, likewise. *-actually in Wigan RL's case it would be a question of whether owning the stadium would be more or less beneficial overall than renting it. Given they lose money in the current setup it's an interesting point. On a wider point, is the commercial and corporate market in Wigan so weak that this isn't able to provide anything more than a token income stream? Wigan is well serviced for the M6. I'm guessing that the money from Wigan RL, as a club, if it took it's saving on its own rent and added in the new Latics rent then would not cover servicing any debt from buying the stadium. But all this depends on what the Latics are worth to anyone wishing to buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said: Wigan is well serviced for the M6. I'm guessing that the money from Wigan RL, as a club, if it took it's saving on its own rent and added in the new Latics rent then would not cover servicing any debt from buying the stadium. But all this depends on what the Latics are worth to anyone wishing to buy them. It's all the other income streams which would be switched on that should cover the cost. This is the business model that supports the other three big clubs, none of whom don't have a tenant of any size, so I can't see why Wigan would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 8 hours ago, M j M said: It's all the other income streams which would be switched on that should cover the cost. This is the business model that supports the other three big clubs, none of whom don't have a tenant of any size, so I can't see why Wigan would be different. Now you've done it! Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 On 06/07/2020 at 09:05, Blind side johnny said: Now you've done it! Is he meaning Wakey, Cas and Fev??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 I'm looking at the stadium accounts and to me there has to be things not included that you would normally associate with stadium income. With the parent company owning the stadium and Latics I take the figures with a giant pinch of salt about what is included and how much the Latics side is contributing. Turnover at £3,279,373 seems very low bearing in mind the amount of use the stadium gets. For the last years accounts catering, restaurant, bar and conferencing facilities income is £2,441,780. There would be around 45 games a season at the stadium with Wigan Rugby usually playing at least 15 games there with average attendances of 11,432 and Latics around 30 games and 11,661 average attendances. Income of around £50k a match seems very low. That is before you get to things like other events like weddings and christenings, conferences and other sources of income like Rigalettos Restaurant. Stadium naming rights £26,712 for the year is practically nothing and can obviously be considerably bettered. Rental income and stadium hire charges again seem low at £810,881 with 2 team playing there. Wigan Rugby pay around £300k a year to play there so with Latics playing at least double the games there, never mind any other rental and stadium income there may be, seem to be paying far less than they could be. I don't buy the argument that the stadium cannot be profitable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, Damien said: I'm looking at the stadium accounts and to me there has to be things not included that you would normally associate with stadium income. With the parent company owning the stadium and Latics I take the figures with a giant pinch of salt about what is included and how much the Latics side is contributing. Turnover at £3,279,373 seems very low bearing in mind the amount of use the stadium gets. For the last years accounts catering, restaurant, bar and conferencing facilities income is £2,441,780. There would be around 45 games a season at the stadium with Wigan Rugby usually playing at least 15 games there with average attendances of 11,432 and Latics around 30 games and 11,661 average attendances. Income of around £50k a match seems very low. That is before you get to things like other events like weddings and christenings, conferences and other sources of income like Rigalettos Restaurant. Stadium naming rights £26,712 for the year is practically nothing and can obviously be considerably bettered. Rental income and stadium hire charges again seem low at £810,881 with 2 team playing there. Wigan Rugby pay around £300k a year to play there so with Latics playing at least double the games there, never mind any other rental and stadium income there may be, seem to be paying far less than they could be. I don't buy the argument that the stadium cannot be profitable at all. The Stadium can only be made profitable by increasing revenue sources , which in reality means hitting the fans through the football clubs. That's simply not going to happen. Why would Wigan RL move from a secure tenancy with pre determined costs to one of ownership and then try to collect rent off a soccer club that is bankrupt , in a downward spiral towards Div 1 and with the vultures already circling around to pick off their better players. ? The Administrators remember are going to have to sell something and quickly..... And that's before you factor in the capital outlay to buy the place.... I hear the Chinese shuffled the assets around via loan arrangements between themselves securing up to an 8% interest payback - check on the cross code forum where the Wasps are in real danger of becoming history next year with only 6.5% interest to pay for the Ricoh, a stadium that makes an absolute fortune for them with their city based off the field activities... The stadium lost £1.5 million last year. with everything in full flow. Unless you are saying that was deliberate or down to terribly poor management it doesn't strike me to be a structure offering an 'incredible business opportunity ' in the current climate...…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, del capo said: The Stadium can only be made profitable by increasing revenue sources , which in reality means hitting the fans through the football clubs. That's simply not going to happen. Why would Wigan RL move from a secure tenancy with pre determined costs to one of ownership and then try to collect rent off a soccer club that is bankrupt , in a downward spiral towards Div 1 and with the vultures already circling around to pick off their better players. ? The Administrators remember are going to have to sell something and quickly..... And that's before you factor in the capital outlay to buy the place.... I hear the Chinese shuffled the assets around via loan arrangements between themselves securing up to an 8% interest payback - check on the cross code forum where the Wasps are in real danger of becoming history next year with only 6.5% interest to pay for the Ricoh, a stadium that makes an absolute fortune for them with their city based off the field activities... The stadium lost £1.5 million last year. with everything in full flow. Unless you are saying that was deliberate or down to terribly poor management it doesn't strike me to be a structure offering an 'incredible business opportunity ' in the current climate...…. Sorry but you spectacularly miss the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleEyePie Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/exclusive-wigan-warriors-led-bid-buy-wigan-athletic-2906124 I mentioned earlier in the thread that I could see this being Lenagan's plan rather than purely buying the stadium. As far as local businessmen with considerable knowledge of football and experience owning a football club (and a rugby club) go, he'd be the obvious candidate to try to organise a consortium to buy the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 According to the SSN update I've just recieved Wigan Warriors are looking to buy the latics?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Just now, Tommygilf said: According to the SSN update I've just recieved Wigan Warriors are looking to buy the latics?? It'll refer to Ian Lenegan really as owner of Wigan Rugby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Just now, Damien said: It'll refer to Ian Lenegan really as owner of Wigan Rugby. Oh fair. I hope they come out of this alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Just been flagged up on BBC local news, be reporting on it shortly but probably no more info than appears in WIgan Today. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 47 minutes ago, Damien said: It'll refer to Ian Lenegan really as owner of Wigan Rugby. I believe you are right. Wigan Warriors will not be taking over the Latics. Exposure to risk is not in their interests. Ian Lenegan with considerable soccer experience ( he saved his other local team Oxford United from oblivion) is looking to put together a consortium with the aim of keeping Latics going . That is clearly in the interests of Wigan RL - both clubs need the stadium and the stadium in turn needs them both to avoid becoming a white elephant. But the clubs will if ( big if ) the deal stacks up remain totally separate with mutual interests. Daryl Eales chaired Oxford United ? Gary Speakman a Wigan accountant once sat on the Latics Board ? Amongst his various volunteer roles Speakman helped put together the highly successful Wigan Youth Zone which involved investments from more than one of Wigan's multi millionaires. Shares Lenegan's passion for educating kids as well. Potential rays of sunshine...……. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Damien said: Stadium naming rights £26,712 for the year is practically nothing and can obviously be considerably bettered. Rental income and stadium hire charges again seem low at £810,881 with 2 team playing there. Wigan Rugby pay around £300k a year to play there Naming rights is a token payment by Dave Whelan to give naming writes to his DW sports company so can most certainly be bettered. The rugby pays rent by percentage of gate money so will vary with how attractive the fixtures are and how many there are. Catering is franchised out to Centerplate. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Fanatic Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Wigan Rugby League have put out a club Statement https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2020/07/07/club-statement-wigan-warriors-and-wigan-athletic/?fbclid=IwAR0Hw-_QuugwPJIZxXZ5HBwTms5F9wG7v264IHEv21YW-cHN5xBc4LCFD1s 100% League 0% Union Just because I don't know doesn't mean I don't understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Gary Speakman is Chairman of Highfield Cricket Club (Wigan). I believe he coaches under 9s. So he is local and is Sport minded. And a businessman of some repute. Not the last lot. Let's keep the Arabs and Chinese out. Localism, not Globalism. Sustainalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Strictly grapevine stuff, but been told Ainscough and Whelan are involved along with Lenagan. Lenagan has business interests with Phil Clarke how long before his name pops up. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, Padge said: Strictly grapevine stuff, but been told Ainscough and Whelan are involved along with Lenagan. Lenagan has business interests with Phil Clarke how long before his name pops up. I envisage some sort of consortium like that too. Lenegan is rich by most standards but is not rich enough to subsidise a club losing £9 million a year in it last accounts, pre Covid-19 and the current troubles too. He has always been very clever and prudent with his money and wouldn't put himself in a situation where he was going to shoulder all that burden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 19 minutes ago, Damien said: I envisage some sort of consortium like that too. Lenegan is rich by most standards but is not rich enough to subsidise a club losing £9 million a year in it last accounts, pre Covid-19 and the current troubles too. He has always been very clever and prudent with his money and wouldn't put himself in a situation where he was going to shoulder all that burden. You're spot on about Lenagan, he is also a producer for West End Theatre shows, so one of his income streams has dried up. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 31 minutes ago, Damien said: I envisage some sort of consortium like that too. Lenegan is rich by most standards but is not rich enough to subsidise a club losing £9 million a year in it last accounts, pre Covid-19 and the current troubles too. He has always been very clever and prudent with his money and wouldn't put himself in a situation where he was going to shoulder all that burden. I do not see where you get losing £9 million a year, when the accounts for 2019 show a loss of £1.4 million. The club is not making money right now1, but it's working to improve its turnover and it's not losing £9 mil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: I do not see where you get losing £9 million a year, when the accounts for 2019 show a loss of £1.4 million. The club is not making money right now1, but it's working to improve its turnover and it's not losing £9 mil. In the latest accounts, its quite clear: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 That is in addition to losing £7.6 million the year before. The £9.2 million loss for the year to 30th June 2019 even includes making a profit of £3.75 million on player transfers. The Latics are no where near sustainable in its present form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, SL17 said: Peanuts to Whelan. Who is yet to bid. Ah, so the immediate discussion is the Latics' losses. Im with that now. Apologies. I'm not sure Whelan can sustain £9 million. But the Latics are bankrupt, that is the point. "New Latics" will get relegated and will run their affairs afresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, SL17 said: Peanuts to Whelan. Who is yet to bid. Whelan hasn't said he is going to bid, he has said he will see how he can help, as at 86 he can't seeing himself wanting own it again. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 21 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: I do not see where you get losing £9 million a year, when the accounts for 2019 show a loss of £1.4 million. The club is not making money right now1, but it's working to improve its turnover and it's not losing £9 mil. I think you are you confusing the soccer club and the stadium, they are two seperate businesses. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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