D W Stadium - Wigan Warriors

[ATLANTISMAN]

8 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

Will DW going into administration have an affect on Wigan? What with their name benign on the stadium 

Don't think it will affect things at all FIRE SALE now in Ian we trust:)

 

Paul

[JohnM]

15 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

Will DW going into administration have an affect on Wigan? What with their name benign on the stadium 

Might be worth you reading the whole thread from the beginning. 

[Harry Stottle]

If no buyer is found for next season, do the Warriors carry on playing there and pay the administrators the rent or will they have to vacate the DW? 

If so considering there is a very adequate facility within the Borough at Leigh Sports Village and part owned by by Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council, the stadium holds 12,000 which is over Wigans recent seasonal average attendances it would be the correct course of action for The Warriors to play out of the LSV and pay the rent to the council for doing so.

I say this for no reason other than I am a rate payer to WMBC, and so it seems the correct course of action for the benefit of every rate payer, the alternative is they go and pay somewhere else Bolton perhaps or finance and build their own within the town of Wigan.

[Superb Chops]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If no buyer is found for next season, do the Warriors carry on playing there and pay the administrators the rent or will they have to vacate the DW? 

If so considering there is a very adequate facility within the Borough at Leigh Sports Village and part owned by by Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council, the stadium holds 12,000 which is over Wigans recent seasonal average attendances it would be the correct course of action for The Warriors to play out of the LSV and pay the rent to the council for doing so.

I say this for no reason other than I am a rate payer to WMBC, and so it seems the correct course of action for the benefit of every rate payer, the alternative is they go and pay somewhere else Bolton perhaps or finance and build their own within the town of Wigan.

This will be unpopular among many fans, both RL and football, but I agree.

The borough's economy isn't big enough for the DW, Robin Park and LSV grounds.

Leigh seems the best fit if it can accommodate three clubs. That, however, may drop to two temporarily: the Latics need a sound buyer fast or risk following Bury.

Being a Wigan supporter of both clubs, the situation is grim.

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Superb Chops said:

This will be unpopular among many fans, both RL and football, but I agree.

The borough's economy isn't big enough for the DW, Robin Park and LSV grounds.

Leigh seems the best fit if it can accommodate three clubs. That, however, may drop to two temporarily: the Latics need a sound buyer fast or risk following Bury.

Being a Wigan supporter of both clubs, the situation is grim.

I never considered the Latics, did you know that the LSV is the home ground of Manchester United Ladies, to much of the football an rugby seasons overlap to accommodate 4 teams, infact Leigh had to move two fixtures in tge very short season we have had because the ladies were drawn at home in the cup and the games were televised on Sunday, Leigh had to move to other days. 

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

If no buyer is found for next season, do the Warriors carry on playing there and pay the administrators the rent or will they have to vacate the DW? 

If so considering there is a very adequate facility within the Borough at Leigh Sports Village and part owned by by Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council, the stadium holds 12,000 which is over Wigans recent seasonal average attendances it would be the correct course of action for The Warriors to play out of the LSV and pay the rent to the council for doing so.

I say this for no reason other than I am a rate payer to WMBC, and so it seems the correct course of action for the benefit of every rate payer, the alternative is they go and pay somewhere else Bolton perhaps or finance and build their own within the town of Wigan.

"I say this for no reason other than I am a rate payer to WMBC,"

Well, I believe you, if no one else does.

Obviously, you've researched this in detail.

What is the amount LSV pays in business rates in a normal year?

What is the amount LSV are paying this year?

What is the amount the owners of the DW pay in business rates in a normal year?

What is the amount the owners (or anyone else) pays in business rates this year.

What rebate doe LSV get for loss of amenity since there is no railway?

In all cases, how is that amount calculated?

This question carries 5 marks per answer.

 

[FearTheVee]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

If no buyer is found for next season, do the Warriors carry on playing there and pay the administrators the rent or will they have to vacate the DW? 

Is the stadium management company in Administration?  If not Wigan will continue to pay rent as they do now.

In theory the bid risk for Wigan is that the Administrators have a duty to maximise value for creditors, which could mean selling the ground to the highest bidder.  I assume , however, that there are restrictions to planning/use of the area as a stadium which the local planning authority is unlikely to change, which probably makes a lossmaking stadium pretty worthless.

I can see the stadium reverting to the council and there being a furore over local rate-payers picking up the losses.

[Eddie]

39 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I never considered the Latics, did you know that the LSV is the home ground of Manchester United Ladies, to much of the football an rugby seasons overlap to accommodate 4 teams, infact Leigh had to move two fixtures in tge very short season we have had because the ladies were drawn at home in the cup and the games were televised on Sunday, Leigh had to move to other days. 

Leigh had to move their fixture because Man Utd women wanted to play at the same time? Seriously? 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

"I say this for no reason other than I am a rate payer to WMBC,"

Well, I believe you, if no one else does.

Obviously, you've researched this in detail.

What is the amount LSV pays in business rates in a normal year?

What is the amount LSV are paying this year?

What is the amount the owners of the DW pay in business rates in a normal year?

What is the amount the owners (or anyone else) pays in business rates this year.

What rebate doe LSV get for loss of amenity since there is no railway?

In all cases, how is that amount calculated?

This question carries 5 marks per answer.

 

Not a clue John,

Ok the council may loose out on some buisness rates for the DW as it stands at the moment if no buyer comes along it is an empty shell, the LSV is one of the council's assests and would be making more money, and so your club may save on shared rates, if the calcs are done we would know then, why are you so dismissive to the suggestion?

What other reason would I have to suggest The Warriors utilise the Borough's assests other than financial reasons, if you are worried that I would take your seat for the Warriors home games you can rest assured I wouldn't.

[Harry Stottle]

30 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Leigh had to move their fixture because Man Utd women wanted to play at the same time? Seriously? 

Yes Leigh were scheduled to play on Sunday's but the Women's FA cup draw and TV wanting to televise them meant the Centurions had to reschedule.

I don't know how much Man U pay compared to the Centurions, the Man U U'23's I think but it is one of their 'age related' teams also use the ground on some occasions, but the bottom line is the Centurions I am sure have first call, but we Leythers and especially Mr Beaumont are an accommodating lot and would help out.

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

Is the stadium management company in Administration?  If not Wigan will continue to pay rent as they do now.

In theory the bid risk for Wigan is that the Administrators have a duty to maximise value for creditors, which could mean selling the ground to the highest bidder.  I assume , however, that there are restrictions to planning/use of the area as a stadium which the local planning authority is unlikely to change, which probably makes a lossmaking stadium pretty worthless.

I can see the stadium reverting to the council and there being a furore over local rate-payers picking up the losses.

Thanks for that FTV, when you say reverting to the council do you mean they purchase it at much reduced rates? 

[gingerjon]

58 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Leigh had to move their fixture because Man Utd women wanted to play at the same time? Seriously? 

It's normally a rule in FA competitions that the football clubs have primacy of tenure.

[FearTheVee]

39 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for that FTV, when you say reverting to the council do you mean they purchase it at much reduced rates? 

The land and stadium will be sat on the management company's balance sheet as an asset with a value probably in the tens of millions.  The reality of its value is probably very different assuming the local planning authorities would not allow it's use to be changed.

The only way I can see it has value is to

i) a developer - but I suspect this is a non-starter for planning reasons;

ii) a third party which can run it at a profit (hard to see given recent preformance absent increased rent that neither the rugby club nor the football club - both loss-making entities themselves - can afford).  I assume that the football club has defaulted on its obligations so the lease can be terminated/varied but can't imagine the same is true for the RL - I expect there is a long term lease in place which prevents it being hiked to a level where the stadium makes sense as a commercial enterprise in its own right?  I also don't know whether there are restrictions in any shareholder agreement around who it can be sold to (the council holds 15% share in the stadium company I believe?); or

iii) the sports clubs themselves, but will they want to take on the risk if they don't think they can run it at a profit?  Do they have the pockets to prop up losses in the short-term?

If the above fail you can see a situation where the council is able to offer best value by buying up the 85% stake (probably for very little) as a municipal facility but they would be under a lot of pressure to make it break even if they are allowing two commercial enterprises to operate there.  The council could probably make a strong case (on a balance sheet basis at least) for taking on the stadium as in theory it is in their gift to sell the land for development if they wanted to so an argument can be made for buying back the asset at what is likely to be minimal value.

The big risks to Wigan RL I can see is that either nobody comes in for Wigan Athletic and the club folds or they buy the club and move it to Leigh or similar, which would serve to undermine the viability of the stadium.

That said, I'm sure there is a solution to be reached - the income from Wigan RL is likely to be important to any buyer and there is a clear incentive for the council to play its part to find a solution.

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

The land and stadium will be sat on the management company's balance sheet as an asset with a value probably in the tens of millions.  The reality of its value is probably very different assuming the local planning authorities would not allow it's use to be changed.

The only way I can see it has value is to

i) a developer - but I suspect this is a non-starter for planning reasons;

ii) a third party which can run it at a profit (hard to see given recent preformance absent increased rent that neither the rugby club nor the football club - both loss-making entities themselves - can afford).  I assume that the football club has defaulted on its obligations so the lease can be terminated/varied but can't imagine the same is true for the RL - I expect there is a long term lease in place which prevents it being hiked to a level where the stadium makes sense as a commercial enterprise in its own right?  I also don't know whether there are restrictions in any shareholder agreement around who it can be sold to (the council holds 15% share in the stadium company I believe?); or

iii) the sports clubs themselves, but will they want to take on the risk if they don't think they can run it at a profit?  Do they have the pockets to prop up losses in the short-term?

If the above fail you can see a situation where the council is able to offer best value by buying up the 85% stake (probably for very little) as a municipal facility but they would be under a lot of pressure to make it break even if they are allowing two commercial enterprises to operate there.  The council could probably make a strong case (on a balance sheet basis at least) for taking on the stadium as in theory it is in their gift to sell the land for development if they wanted to so an argument can be made for buying back the asset at what is likely to be minimal value.

The big risks to Wigan RL I can see is that either nobody comes in for Wigan Athletic and the club folds or they buy the club and move it to Leigh or similar, which would serve to undermine the viability of the stadium.

That said, I'm sure there is a solution to be reached - the income from Wigan RL is likely to be important to any buyer and there is a clear incentive for the council to play its part to find a solution.

Rather complicated with no easy solution then.

Thanks for that FTV, whatever the Borough Council decides and if they spend money I will have as much a stake in it as any rate paying Wigginer. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

I suspect it is pretty simple. The stadium has a sitting tenant, us, which will not be on terms so attractive as to turn a loss making venture into a profit making one. Any buyer will be buying a club which does not make money, and has little prospect of doing so because of costs far in excess of anything we will or would be prepared to pay. But then 99% of sports clubs are loss making - people buy them for other reasons. Wigan may be loss making at the moment, but that is temporary, and largely a matter of choice, given that we employ a host of non first team rugby staff because of our belief in investing in the game and the community. As our bid has shown, we have plenty of cash if we need it. Either nothing will change or we will buy the Latics and have to take on an asset on terms which we could change in favour of us (though at the much larger cost of trying to support a dead duck football club). I can’t see us being at any risk or losing out any which way. 

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not a clue John,

Ok the council may loose out on some buisness rates for the DW as it stands at the moment if no buyer comes along it is an empty shell, the LSV is one of the council's assests and would be making more money, and so your club may save on shared rates, if the calcs are done we would know then, why are you so dismissive to the suggestion?

What other reason would I have to suggest The Warriors utilise the Borough's assests other than financial reasons, if you are worried that I would take your seat for the Warriors home games you can rest assured I wouldn't.

If you looked into it, you might find that even now, the DW business rates are much more than those of that mini-DW, the LSV.. or not, of course. 

It might therfore be better that the LSV is closed in favour of the DW. 

Without the figures, of course, we won't know. 

I'm sure there are dispassionate posters on here who can fill in the blanks on business rates, who they are paid to and how they make their way back to the council etc. 

[FearTheVee]

22 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Wigan may be loss making at the moment, but that is temporary, and largely a matter of choice

Interesting take on it - I am interested to see the year to November 2019 accounts (which were due the end of this month but now due end Novemeber due to the COVID filing extensions).  A chunk of the £1.4m operating loss in 2018 despite the Bateman transfer fee was put down to the ill-fated Australia trip etc so hopefully the 2019 performance looks much healthier (with another fee for George Williams in there) - we need our big clubs to be as self-sufficient as they can be.

[M j M]

36 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

Interesting take on it - I am interested to see the year to November 2019 accounts (which were due the end of this month but now due end Novemeber due to the COVID filing extensions).  A chunk of the £1.4m operating loss in 2018 despite the Bateman transfer fee was put down to the ill-fated Australia trip etc so hopefully the 2019 performance looks much healthier (with another fee for George Williams in there) - we need our big clubs to be as self-sufficient as they can be.

Interesting take indeed. Wigan have been losing money for years so it's hard to say it's temporary, and Lenagan's comments suggest it's not particularly by choice either.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

If you looked into it, you might find that even now, the DW business rates are much more than those of that mini-DW, the LSV.. or not, of course. 

It might therfore be better that the LSV is closed in favour of the DW. 

Without the figures, of course, we won't know. 

I'm sure there are dispassionate posters on here who can fill in the blanks on business rates, who they are paid to and how they make their way back to the council etc. 

Have you visited the LSV not just the stadium but everthing that goes with it, the ground capacity is only half size of the DW but it really offers much more, and the Metro has much more than the 15% it has in the DW, I couldn't care less if Wigan play in Leigh or Leicester, but I am interested how the council spends it's money, the LSV is a facility in and for the people of the Borough which consists of much more than just the town of Wigan, money should be spent in all parts though you wouldn't think so if you heard some of the views I have.

[my missus]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you visited the LSV not just the stadium but everthing that goes with it, the ground capacity is only half size of the DW but it really offers much more, and the Metro has much more than the 15% it has in the DW, I couldn't care less if Wigan play in Leigh or Leicester, but I am interested how the council spends it's money, the LSV is a facility in and for the people of the Borough which consists of much more than just the town of Wigan, money should be spent in all parts though you wouldn't think so if you heard some of the views I have.

why does the LSV offer much more than the DW?

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

If no buyer is found for next season, do the Warriors carry on playing there and pay the administrators the rent or will they have to vacate the DW? 

If so considering there is a very adequate facility within the Borough at Leigh Sports Village and part owned by by Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council, the stadium holds 12,000 which is over Wigans recent seasonal average attendances it would be the correct course of action for The Warriors to play out of the LSV and pay the rent to the council for doing so.

I say this for no reason other than I am a rate payer to WMBC, and so it seems the correct course of action for the benefit of every rate payer, the alternative is they go and pay somewhere else Bolton perhaps or finance and build their own within the town of Wigan.

A move to the LSV could be a good thing for Wigan IMO, the DW stadium is too big for them with the exception of games against Saints. If they played their home games at Leigh and had some ambition they could take their Saints home game to The City Of Manchester Stadium.

[Whippet13]

2 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

A move to the LSV could be a good thing for Wigan IMO, the DW stadium is too big for them with the exception of games against Saints. If they played their home games at Leigh and had some ambition they could take their Saints home game to The City Of Manchester Stadium.

On that logic Hull FC should move to Craven Park, Rhino's to Elland Road and just open one stand etc.

The stadium size is irrelevant though, it's the stadium deal - and the Warriors have a very good one at the DW.

That's before you take into account the facilities next door at Robin Park which generate significant club matchday revenue.

[my missus]

The DW been massively under used because of the limitations put on it by the football there hasn't been an international game there for many years now or semi finals. it also has enormous potential as a music venue the sipping down the league of the latics might be a blessing in disguise for everyone concerned

[Whippet13]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have you visited the LSV not just the stadium but everthing that goes with it, the ground capacity is only half size of the DW but it really offers much more, and the Metro has much more than the 15% it has in the DW, I couldn't care less if Wigan play in Leigh or Leicester, but I am interested how the council spends it's money, the LSV is a facility in and for the people of the Borough which consists of much more than just the town of Wigan, money should be spent in all parts though you wouldn't think so if you heard some of the views I have.

But how much is the council stake in LSV worth to the council compared the 15% they own in the DW? The LSV is a satellite stadium built to primarily service the local community and is less than half the size of the DW. It's relative value may therefore be much smaller.

[Exiled Wiganer]

44 minutes ago, M j M said:

Interesting take indeed. Wigan have been losing money for years so it's hard to say it's temporary, and Lenagan's comments suggest it's not particularly by choice either.

He would rather not, but we choose to spend a lot of money on nice to haves, for the benefit of the game and the community.