Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Allora said: Different style of player, different team and style of play for that team. I think Ferguson does a great job for Parramatta and although he has not scored this year his contribution in attack and defense has been outstanding. He fits into the team and plays his role where defending sides are apprehensive when he gets the ball because he can change a game and has done that often in recent times. Ryan Hall regardless of his injuries was once called the "Worlds best Winger or WBW" that in itself is a mouthful and a bit of an embarrassing nickname IMO. Do you agree that the Roosters bought him to be a run on player with his record as the "WBW" and his try scoring feats on his resume? The fact he can not regularly get a start at the Roosters is failure in my opinion. Ryan Hall represented Great Britain last year. Hall is 32, the Morris boys are 33 and last represented Australia six years ago in 2014. You can cherry pick a player at my Club if you want to make a point but not many fans of the game would take Hall over Ferguson to be in their team today IMO. I very much doubt the Roosters will renew Halls contract unlike what they have done last week with the Morris boys. Are you his Agent? I'm confused. When I list all the reasons how Hall has contributed to the Roosters in his nine games so far you say that a wingers job is scoring tries and so he is a failure. And yet when we discuss Ferguson's failure to score in his 10 games this year you list all the reasons how he has contributed to the Eels performances. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Just now, Dunbar said: I'm confused. When I list all the reasons how Hall has contributed to the Roosters in his nine games so far you say that a wingers job is scoring tries and so he is a failure. And yet when we discuss Ferguson's failure to score in his 10 games this year you list all the reasons how he has contributed to the Eels performances. A Wingers job is to score tries or at least be a threat to score them and make the opposition try to counter that threat. This opens up opportunities to other players in attack as the defense covers that attacking threat Unfortunately Mr Hall offers none of the above IMO, the defense do not worry about him, his own team do not seem to see him as an asset that will win them a game and bring him into the attack and his Coach only uses him in the team when he absolutely has to. If $BW joins the Roosters expect him to be in front of Hall on the Wing when the team is selected. I have nothing against Ryan Hall but his time in the NRL has not been a success, most big Wingers or Centres move into the Second Row or Lock as they fill out and their speed diminishes. See Mal Meninga, Noel Cleal, Ellery Hanley and countless others Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 So we are agreed. The wingers job is to score tries and the Eels need to drop Ferguson. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Dunbar said: So we are agreed. The wingers job is to score tries and the Eels need to drop Ferguson. Ferguson who ? You think I'm kidding Allora ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, Dunbar said: So we are agreed. The wingers job is to score tries and the Eels need to drop Ferguson. From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW time in the NRL? I would not drop Ferguson and I would not sign a has been like Hall. Not sure if you are trying to drive a point home or just being obtuse, either way...... you are losing me. Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, Allora said: From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW time in the NRL? I would not drop Ferguson and I would not sign a has been like Hall. Not sure if you are trying to drive a point home or just being obtuse, either way...... you are losing me. So let's look at Hall and Ferguson side by side. Hall's 9 games for the Roosters so far and Ferguson's 10 games for the Eels this year. Neither have got on the scoresheet of course so we have to look at their other contributions (I will set aside the fact you have insisted that when discussing Hall previously we had to concentrate on his try scoring and not factor in the other aspects but with Ferguson we must look at his overall contribution). You say Ferguson's 'contribution in both attack and defence has been outstanding' They both work hard with the ball - particularly carrying the ball away from their own line. Hall edges this as he makes 174 meters a game with the ball in hand while Ferguson carries for 171. In defence, Hall has missed 7 tackles and Ferguson 13. Hall's tackle efficiency is 82% and Ferguson is76%. Just explain to me again how Hall is a failure and yet Ferguson has done really well this year and his contribution in both attack and defence has been outstanding? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, Dunbar said: So let's look at Hall and Ferguson side by side. Hall's 9 games for the Roosters so far and Ferguson's 10 games for the Eels this year. Neither have got on the scoresheet of course so we have to look at their other contributions (I will set aside the fact you have insisted that when discussing Hall previously we had to concentrate on his try scoring and not factor in the other aspects but with Ferguson we must look at his overall contribution). You say Ferguson's 'contribution in both attack and defence has been outstanding' They both work hard with the ball - particularly carrying the ball away from their own line. Hall edges this as he makes 174 meters a game with the ball in hand while Ferguson carries for 171. In defence, Hall has missed 7 tackles and Ferguson 13. Hall's tackle efficiency is 82% and Ferguson is76%. Just explain to me again how Hall is a failure and yet Ferguson has done really well this year and his contribution in both attack and defence has been outstanding? Dunbar, you seem to be a Stats man looking at most of your posts. Stats are great but only tell a certain story, stats can often give false viewpoints on where they fit into the total game day outcomes. You quote them over and over again to prove a point, often a point I disagree with looking at the total game and the context of a players contribution Half of Stats mean nothing, they are only relevant to the part of the field they are in or the context of a game. They are often a general factor in a players or teams outcome. From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW time in the NRL? Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Allora said: Dunbar, you are a Stats man. You quote them over and over again to prove a point, often a point I disagree with looking at the total game and the context of a players contribution Half of Stats mean nothing, they are only relevant to the part of the field they are in or the context of a game. They are often a general factor in a players or teams outcome. From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW time in the NRL? I only use stats to disprove silly accusations. The simple fact is that when Hall is not scoring for the Roosters I always point out his significant contribution in other areas and yet others will say all that matters with a winger is scoring tries. And yet, when a player like Ferguson goes more games than Hall without a try, all of a sudden his other contributions are critical. And yet when we get into the detail, Hall is actually outperforming Ferguson in these areas as well. And yet you insist one is a failure and the other is providing an 'outstanding' contribution to his team. As it happens, I think Ferguson has been very good for the Eels this year as he has worked hard for his team and the modern wingers role is much more than scoring tries. I am simply calling out your double standards. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I only use stats to disprove silly accusations. The simple fact is that when Hall is not scoring for the Roosters I always point out his significant contribution in other areas and yet others will say all that matters with a winger is scoring tries. And yet, when a player like Ferguson goes more games than Hall without a try, all of a sudden his other contributions are critical. And yet when we get into the detail, Hall is actually outperforming Ferguson in these areas as well. And yet you insist one is a failure and the other is providing an 'outstanding' contribution to his team. As it happens, I think Ferguson has been very good for the Eels this year as he has worked hard for his team and the modern wingers role is much more than scoring tries. I am simply calling out your double standards. I do not accept your opinion. Answer the question below. If it is more than a 2-4 from 10 you are having a laugh. Ferguson without any tries would be a 7-8 for what he brings to the team. From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW time in the NRL? Ferguson is an established performer in the Eels team and his contribution is valued by his Coach, Team and Fans. The fact that Hall can not break into a regular starting spot for the Roosters is a fail for me. When he has played because everybody else was injured or could not move out of position from Prop to Wing. His defense has been suspect.. His team Mates do not seem to want to get the ball to him regardless of which Wing he is on... Hows his Stats Dunbar? A team with players that have Stats like his will win not much unless some of the Stats lead to tries or defending tries Stats mean nothing without some context in where the stats take place. Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 26 minutes ago, Dunbar said: So let's look at Hall and Ferguson side by side. Hall's 9 games for the Roosters so far and Ferguson's 10 games for the Eels this year. Neither have got on the scoresheet of course so we have to look at their other contributions (I will set aside the fact you have insisted that when discussing Hall previously we had to concentrate on his try scoring and not factor in the other aspects but with Ferguson we must look at his overall contribution). You say Ferguson's 'contribution in both attack and defence has been outstanding' They both work hard with the ball - particularly carrying the ball away from their own line. Hall edges this as he makes 174 meters a game with the ball in hand while Ferguson carries for 171. In defence, Hall has missed 7 tackles and Ferguson 13. Hall's tackle efficiency is 82% and Ferguson is76%. Just explain to me again how Hall is a failure and yet Ferguson has done really well this year and his contribution in both attack and defence has been outstanding? When a kick and chase has managed to nail the full-back in a tight corner, it`s a major part of the modern winger`s role to pick up at dummy-half, beat the markers, arc in and out to squeeze between defenders and find his front. Get this right and a team can have good shape on tackle 2, get it wrong, run smack into a big forward, be held up and driven back, and a team could have no shape till about tackle 5. Ryan Hall has always been one of the best at this, it`s a big part of his utility to a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Ryan Hall is a flop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 1 minute ago, unapologetic pedant said: When a kick and chase has managed to nail the full-back in a tight corner, it`s a major part of the modern winger`s role to pick up at dummy-half, beat the markers, arc in and out to squeeze between defenders and find his front. Get this right and a team can have good shape on tackle 2, get it wrong, run smack into a big forward, be held up and driven back, and a team could have no shape till about tackle 5. Ryan Hall has always been one of the best at this, it`s a big part of his utility to a team. Not since he joined the Roosters. He barely gets a game and when he does he is just an extra forward running some metres from way back in his own half. Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 26 minutes ago, Allora said: I do not accept your opinion. Hall running for more metres and missing fewer tackles in his nine games for the Roosters than Ferguson has in his last 10 games for the Eels is not my opinion. It is one of those annoying things call facts. We can have a difference of opinion but we can't have a difference of facts. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Hall running for more metres and missing fewer tackles in his nine games for the Roosters than Ferguson has in his last 10 games for the Eels is not my opinion. It is one of those annoying things call facts. We can have a difference of opinion but we can't have a difference of facts. No. Stats have to be in context of where they are recorded. Two metres that get you over the try line are worth more than a hundred metres from your own in goal. Missed tackles are subjective too. When a posters can argue stats but can not answer a question posed two or three times it says it all. From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW's time in the NRL? (Ryan Hall) Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Allora said: No. Stats have to be in context of where they are recorded. Two metres that get you over the try line are worth more than a hundred metres from your own in goal. Missed tackle are subjective to. When a posters can argue stats but can not answer a question posed two or three times it says it all. From 1-10 how would you rate the WBW's time in the NRL? (Ryan Hall) Let's be clear how we got here. I have provided an opinion on how I feel Hall has contributed to the Roosters performances despite not getting over try line. You, and others, have insisted that the tries are what really matters. And yet now that I happen to point out that Blake Ferguson has also not scored in his last 10 games for the Eels, all of a sudden all these other contributions really matter. And yet the evidence shows that Hall is even working harder than Ferguson with the ball and missing fewer tackles in defence. I have brought evidence to the table. Just because you don't agree with the stats doesn't make the stats wrong. And yet you insist that Hall has been a failure and Ferguson is providing an outstanding contribution to his team. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allora Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 Just now, Dunbar said: Let's be clear how we got here. I have provided an opinion on how I feel Hall has contributed to the Roosters performances despite not getting over try line. You, and others, have insisted that the tries are what really matters. And yet now that I happen to point out that Blake Ferguson has also not scored in his last 10 games for the Eels, all of a sudden all these other contributions really matter. And yet the evidence shows that Hall is even working harder than Ferguson with the ball and missing fewer tackles in defence. I have brought evidence to the table. Just because you don't agree with the stats doesn't make the stats wrong. And yet you insist that Hall has been a failure and Ferguson is providing an outstanding contribution to his team. Dunbar, you still have not answered the question. I have told you that Stats are only relevant to a point. I am disappointed in you, I thought you were a straight shooter that when asked a question would answer it rather than Fluff rubbish to avoid the answer. How do you rate Halls performance in the games he has been selected by the Roosters? 1-10 I am starting to wonder if your $5,000,000 budgets or whatever they were at your workplace are real, Walter. Talent is secondary to whether players are confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Allora said: Dunbar, you still have not answered the question. I have told you that Stats are only relevant to a point. I am disappointed in you, I thought you were a straight shooter that when asked a question would answer it rather than Fluff rubbish to avoid the answer. How do you rate Halls performance in the games he has been selected by the Roosters? 1-10 I am starting to wonder if your $5,000,000 budgets or whatever they were at your workplace are real, Walter. I would rate Hall's performances for the Roosters about 6 out of 10. He has not got over the line but he has literally had zero chances. What he has done is what a modern winger must do in the game today which is provide an extra ball carrier coming away from his own line and he has done that very well. My point is that players like Ferguson and Hall still add massive value to their teams despite not getting over the try line and I am sure that their coaches appreciate their work ethic. But you cannot say that Ferguson is playing at 7 or 8 out of 10 and Hall 2 to 4 when Hall is doing everything that Ferguson is doing and actually the stats say he is doing it better. To say this is a massive double standard. (p.s. it was $140,000,000) "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 On 25/07/2020 at 14:20, Allora said: If it is more than a 2-4 from 10 you are having a laugh. Ferguson without any tries would be a 7-8 for what he brings to the team. So, what's your rating of Ferguson this week Allora? (still no tries for the season by the way) He was all at sea in defense for the Bulldogs no try in the first half (lucky for him it was chalked off) Took a stupid decision to go on the blind side close to the line from dummy half and was forced into touch. Was forced back into his own in goal on a carry and conceded a drop out. He did run ball 19 times for 149 metres but of course those types of stats don't mean anything do they. Do you think Parra will stick with for next week or is it time to drop him? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC77 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 On 15/07/2020 at 11:27, The Rocket said: It`s just not true. Union internationals have been forced to play at places like Newcastle to try and drum up a crowd and even that hasn`t worked. As far as the Bledisloe Cup goes, it is an absolute shadow of itself . 20 years ago 90 000+ at Olympic Stadium, all singing f...... Waltzing Matilda `til your eyes bled, now lucky to get 40 000. If the bloody Kiwis(League) played with the same emotion that they put into the Haka and provided some decent competition the crowds would come back. Actually played with the same passion as the Tongans. I miss that tbh. Those games I used to get up at 7am for. Hugely competitive with evenly matched teams, and when RU was much more open and expansive than it is now. It was one of those fixtures that non RU devotees would watch, a highlight in the sporting calendar. RU has killed itself by becoming too attritional, with an emphasis on bulk over skill (player size skyrocketing in that period). Aussies were the sole RU nation that still demanded an open playing style over bulk (possibly as it is also a RL nation, where play is more expansive). But as a result of this they’ve been outmuscled in that time with the pack getting annihilated, so lose much more frequently, aren’t anywhere near as competitive, so interest has nosedived. Wales and France used to be expansive, but to survive they had to become attritional in order to be competitive...the French public used to wave the white hankies if they weren’t entertained, they’ve long since stopped doing that as there’s no hope of the style of RU they used to play as they would get swallowed up by the mammoth brutes that now play the game. The only way I could see RU being revived in Aus if the game itself went back to a more expansive style of play, as only that interests the Aussie public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC77 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 On 01/07/2020 at 21:03, noobiefana said: Attention levels in the public are shortening all the time. The Aussie Union side are in Europe regularly whereas the Aussie League side have disappeared from view. Also Union here is much more high profile now since professionalism came along. It's not just league. If you asked the average lad in the street 20 years ago to name the biggest soccer club outside England he would probably have said AC Milan. Now no one would. If you are not in the headlines you disappear. That’s a good call. Remember playing football video games back then (pre FIFA franchise, can’t recall the name of it), but choosing AC Milan as your team was the ultimate. To me that name carries great gravitas, but to younger fans it definitely would not. Regards the thread topic, I think if you asked the average bloke on the street to name an Aussie sport (if they could name one of course), the first would be Aussie rules. Now this may have changed, but it was certainly the one that would have come to mind when I was growing up. Obviously a cricket fan will say cricket, and a RL fan will say RL, but non devotees of any I’d have thought would still say Aussie rules. It’s as Australian as corked hats. In terms of the profile of RL in Aus among the UK public, it would be very small (much smaller than the profile of English RL, which itself is quite small outside the heartlands). I doubt any non RL devotee could name any player from there, past or present. Think Shane Warne would be the best known Aussie sportsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rocket Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 2 hours ago, DC77 said: The only way I could see RU being revived in Aus if the game itself went back to a more expansive style of play, as only that interests the Aussie public. Open play disappeared with the Ellas and Campese. Professionalism demanded victories and the easiest things that teams can do is to tighten up defences. Union is too hidebound by its traditions to be able to adjust rules and hence the situation deteriorates as players get fitter and stronger as you mentioned. The afl is suffering the same problem as well, sometimes it`s easier to stop other sides scoring than to score yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rocket Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 2 hours ago, DC77 said: the French public used to wave the white hankies Would have loved to have seen that. Funny thought though, the idea that they must have all packed a white hankie just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copa Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 4 hours ago, DC77 said: It’s as Australian as corked hats. The only people I’ve ever seen wear a corked hat in Australia are drunk English tourists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 On 25/07/2020 at 08:20, Allora said: A Wingers job is to score tries or at least be a threat to score them and make the opposition try to counter that threat. This opens up opportunities to other players in attack as the defense covers that attacking threat Unfortunately Mr Hall offers none of the above IMO, the defense do not worry about him, his own team do not seem to see him as an asset that will win them a game and bring him into the attack and his Coach only uses him in the team when he absolutely has to. If $BW joins the Roosters expect him to be in front of Hall on the Wing when the team is selected. I have nothing against Ryan Hall but his time in the NRL has not been a success, most big Wingers or Centres move into the Second Row or Lock as they fill out and their speed diminishes. See Mal Meninga, Noel Cleal, Ellery Hanley and countless others That shows how out of touch you are with the modern game. A wingers primary job is play 2 metres and kick returns. Finishing tries is a standard skill they all have. It’s like saying a half back should be able to pass. please provide an example of a winger moving to back row or middle in the last 15 years. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Answer to the original question. People are generally arrogant and lazy. A large proportion of people in the UK don’t know there are two types of rugby and a large proportion of those that do think rugby league is a small provincial sport (they are correct) and have no reason to think that is different or inclination to research whether it is different anywhere else. Australians like rugby, the thing Jonny Wilkinson played. we have no brand, we have no presence, we are a small time sport in the UK and will forever be perceived as such. I used to listen to talk sport for my sins and there was once a quiz with a prize of going to the World Cup final. Alan Brazil asked the question ‘what is the most popular sport in Sydney?’ The caller seemed fairly intelligent and said rugby. ‘Which rugby?’ Brazil asked. “Union’ he said, ‘no, the other one’ Brazil said, obviously wanting him to get it. The guy couldn’t think of it even after Brazil prompting him with clues like ‘in football the top division is the Premier...’ thats how well known RL is and it’s presence decreases yearly. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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