RFL to scrap promotion and relegation

[Oldbear]

25 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

That sort of thing would take outside money of course and a lot of it to create a fully professional structure and fund the sort of promotional campaign needed for it to fly, i.e. the kind of money which is beyond the game's reach as things stand today.

It would also take real leadership, something that has been sadly lacking in RL since the days of Richard Lewis

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Oldbear said:

It would also take real leadership, something that has been sadly lacking in RL since the days of Richard Lewis

As I say it can't be done within the RFL structure, it can only be done outside it.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, SL17 said:

So why do fans preach about having London,Toulouse, New York and whoever in SL? 
 

What’s the benefit to the sport other than profile. How do you put these clubs in SL without P&R?
 

SL’s bubble bursted a long while back. If SL want them, then take them now. Don’t embarrass the lower tiers anymore.

That won’t happen as SL will want to take them after they have followed the promotion route. 
 

Then again if P&R isn’t in place. How do these new clubs get promoted?

 

Others talk about those clubs being in SL, but I don't.  I know that they don't mix with the traditional clubs much better than oil mixes with water and they should be a separate league of their own.

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Padge said:

Trying to measure a club on the number of fans it takes to away games is another nonsense, some clubs traditionally take a large percentage of their home fans away,

I think your Boss at the Warriors, would be more welcoming to any team that took a lot of speccies to the DW than clubs who took hardly any, ask him when you are next with him!

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Big Picture said:

No there isn't today and there won't be unless and until someone creates them and that won't happen without a suitable league for such teams to play in.

So which comes first the League or the Clubs? 

Think long and hard about that one and before you answer weigh up the objections that either choice would bring to the table.

[Smudger06]

38 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So which comes first the League or the Clubs? 

Think long and hard about that one and before you answer weigh up the objections that either choice would bring to the table.

I think he wants 10 people with a minimum of £500m GBP net worth each to establish a Club and come together to form a League in which they individually own a 1/10 share of, as well as 100% owning their own Club. The kind of RL owner / investors he needs are substantially richer than your Argyles, Koukashs & Caddicks......and totally blow out of the water your Wigan, Warrington, Saints, Catalans, Hull FC owners. 

[DeadShotKeen]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I want all aspects and all clubs to grow , irrespective of where they currently sit in the various community and professional leagues , and indeed irrespective of where they are based 

But how does that work in practice?

How can you realistically treat existing clubs like Barrow, Batley & York in exactly the same way as expansion sides like London, New York & Toulouse? You can't. It's a pipe dream. Expansion will undoubtedly mean changes to a lot of small existing sides in saturated areas. This isn't a bad thing. They should embrace it, both for themselves and also the overall health of the sport.

[Griff]

9 hours ago, SL17 said:

So why do fans preach about having London,Toulouse, New York and whoever in SL? 

What’s the benefit to the sport other than profile. How do you put these clubs in SL without P&R?

 

I dunno.  How did Lahndon and Paris get into $uperleague in 1996 ?

[DeadShotKeen]

12 hours ago, Big Picture said:

You're on the right track there, but what you want to see simply can't happen in the way you suggest.  The traditional clubs all lack the size, money, know-how and just about everything else to be part of a league like that.  Even if you could get local rivals to form joint ventures, they're in the wrong locations for the sort of league you want to see.

As former St Helens chief executive Sean McGuire pointed out in his interviews with Tony Collins, with the possible exception of Leeds all the traditional clubs are in small economically-disadvantaged towns where there simply isn't the sort of money available in places like London, Toronto and New York.  If you want a league like you describe able to bring the sort of money into RL which the sport needs to keep pace with other sports and their steadily-rising TV rights and sponsorship deals, then for it to succeed (as it absolutely would have to do) it would have to locate its franchises in the sort of cities which can attract that sort of money and only in cities which fit that criterion.

I think you're focusing too much on a small aspect of what McGuire is saying. Aren't most big football teams also located in "disadvantaged" cities/towns? How much money does the average Liverpudlian have? Or Mancunian? etc. Sport is a vital part of many peoples' lives and generally people on modest incomes will find the money to enjoy live sport. It's not for nothing that the most passionate sports fans actually tend to be those in the more disadvantaged areas. It can be an asset not a drawback.

What's important (and what I think McGuire is getting at) is the saturation of established RL areas. It's no good having like 6 or 7 pro teams across West Yorkshire and expecting them all to thrive (or even survive). When you add in the "disadvantaged" aspect it adds another dimension but even if that was an affluent area you would still want some redefinition of the elite level landscape. It's all about creating the right number of elite teams for each area is all. The economics vis a vis "bums on seats" then look after themselves.

[DeadShotKeen]

11 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Sounds attractive, but I hate to ask the obvious question, how does this get funded?

Well it's not necessarily for me to outline specifics but in general of course you would outline the plan in advance and look to see what major sponsors you could line up. The league I've formulated in principle would have huge potential for major advertisers, ie you wouldn't be just looking at small parochial interests like Tetley Bitter, Yorkshire Tea or whatever but large companies looking for a captive audience with a wide geographical spread.

The TV deal would also be paramount. You ask for substantially more than SL currently gets on the grounds of the potential new audience and fanbase. There is good reason to suggest that you get it and furthermore have fierce bidding rivalry before too long raising the deal in future years a la football.

You ask NRL to get involved. They would benefit hugely from such a league and the overall worldwide growth of the sport. Maybe they would front up cash without strings or maybe you would offer them a loan investment type thing with returns paid from profits down the line.

Finally you find as many wealthy RL-supporting benefactors that you can and ask them if they want to get involved. The biggest crime of Marwan Koukash's brief involvement in the sport was that he was allowed to pour vast sums of money into the black hole of a basket case club rather than it being used progressively to build the sport as a whole. Why wouldn't he want to get involved with, say, a new expansion club in a new area?

Those are the bare bones of it. I'm not pretending I know the ins--and-outs or that it could be done quickly and easily but anyone suggesting it couldn't be done I would suggest has a rather vested interest and perhaps more accurately means they hope it wouldn't be attempted.

[milpool]

13 hours ago, DeadShotKeen said:

 

Using me as an example, I'd love to watch my old team Hull KR as a semi-pro side and also a merged Hull side at a higher level. In terms of the current derby, you would retain that as a semi-pro fixture which would hopefully resemble something like East Hull youths vs West Hull youths. That would be completely mint. After a natural period of adjustment you would absolutely pack them in. What rugby league fan in Hull wouldn't want to see that?

Me.

[DeadShotKeen]

7 minutes ago, milpool said:

Me.

Why not?

Not a fan of seeing up-and-coming youngsters playing at the highest semi-pro level in front of their own fans?

How many local kids are currently in the Hull KR and Hull FC sides?

[Harry Stottle]

41 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

I think he wants 10 people with a minimum of £500m GBP net worth each to establish a Club and come together to form a League in which they individually own a 1/10 share of, as well as 100% owning their own Club. The kind of RL owner / investors he needs are substantially richer than your Argyles, Koukashs & Caddicks......and totally blow out of the water your Wigan, Warrington, Saints, Catalans, Hull FC owners. 

I think that little lad arab lad called Alladin in the Arabian Nights you know the one with the magic lamp, would be easier to locate than 10 billionaire's willing to help him along in his quest.

Just saying.

[Smudger06]

11 minutes ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Well it's not necessarily for me to outline specifics but in general of course you would outline the plan in advance and look to see what major sponsors you could line up. The league I've formulated in principle would have huge potential for major advertisers, ie you wouldn't be just looking at small parochial interests like Tetley Bitter, Yorkshire Tea or whatever but large companies looking for a captive audience with a wide geographical spread.

The TV deal would also be paramount. You ask for substantially more than SL currently gets on the grounds of the potential new audience and fanbase. There is good reason to suggest that you get it and furthermore have fierce bidding rivalry before too long raising the deal in future years a la football.

You ask NRL to get involved. They would benefit hugely from such a league and the overall worldwide growth of the sport. Maybe they would front up cash without strings or maybe you would offer them a loan investment type thing with returns paid from profits down the line.

Finally you find as many wealthy RL-supporting benefactors that you can and ask them if they want to get involved. The biggest crime of Marwan Koukash's brief involvement in the sport was that he was allowed to pour vast sums of money into the black hole of a basket case club rather than it being used progressively to build the sport as a whole. Why wouldn't he want to get involved with, say, a new expansion club in a new area?

Those are the bare bones of it. I'm not pretending I know the ins--and-outs or that it could be done quickly and easily but anyone suggesting it couldn't be done I would suggest has a rather vested interest and perhaps more accurately means they hope it wouldn't be attempted.

So basically, you are in favour of Murdoch's original SL. The World Club Challenge system would have led to real cross conference fixtures. Problem is, It collapsed after year 1. That's not to say it wouldn't work 25 years on. 

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, Griff said:

I dunno.  How did Lahndon and Paris get into $uperleague in 1996 ?

Well you can put them there Griff, but will they stay there?

[DeadShotKeen]

Just now, Smudger06 said:

So basically, you are in favour of Murdoch's original SL. The World Club Challenge system would have led to real cross conference fixtures. Problem is, It collapsed after year 1. That's not to say it wouldn't work 25 years on. 

It was badly drawn up and obviously had the wrong people in place but the principle behind it was essentially sound. I can't help but think that had it taken place the sport here would be in a substantially healthier position than it is now.

It will need to take the fans (or as many as possible) along with it, which needs the positive involvement of current RL icons. People like Brian Noble and Jon Wilkin I see as intelligent, forward-thinking types who would potentially get behind it. With them helping to outline the pros and cons it could easily get off the ground.

[Smudger06]

Any billionaires with hundreds of millions to splash out on a hobby, all plow it into football. That's not gonna change, and even if it did, never in favour of RL. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

9 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Others talk about those clubs being in SL, but I don't.  I know that they don't mix with the traditional clubs much better than oil mixes with water and they should be a separate league of their own.

Says who? 

[Blind side johnny]

17 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

At least 4 Championship clubs after the "bedding" in period that some SL clubs have enjoyed could easily attain with the monies awarded emulate or be better than a number of SL clubs. Dewsbury would not be in that list perhaps that is the basis of your concern. 

 

Your response to almost every other comment nowadays is singularly bitter Harry. In fact you come across as a sore loser.

I am a RL fan who happens to follow a certain club but my comments are not focussed upon the needs of that club but about the game as a whole. You should try it - maybe you could gain some enlightenment or at least a broader mind.

Club structures need to be fundamentally different in SL, embracing expanded commercial departments, ticketing, merchandising etc. There are not four clubs, if indeed any, in the Championship with the appropriate structures at present. Whether those clubs claiming "ambition" could build such structures sustainably is debateable.

[Harry Stottle]

21 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Your response to almost every other comment nowadays is singularly bitter Harry. In fact you come across as a sore loser.

I am a RL fan who happens to follow a certain club but my comments are not focussed upon the needs of that club but about the game as a whole. You should try it - maybe you could gain some enlightenment or at least a broader mind.

Club structures need to be fundamentally different in SL, embracing expanded commercial departments, ticketing, merchandising etc. There are not four clubs, if indeed any, in the Championship with the appropriate structures at present. Whether those clubs claiming "ambition" could build such structures sustainably is debateable.

I would agree certainly debateable, but initially johnny you dismissed the abilities of any club other than those currently in SL to join that elite band. 

I will not comment on your first or second paragraphs, they are your opinion of whuch I will respect.

[milpool]

2 hours ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Why not?

Not a fan of seeing up-and-coming youngsters playing at the highest semi-pro level in front of their own fans?

How many local kids are currently in the Hull KR and Hull FC sides?

Why on earth would I want to watch Hull KR in a semi-pro league, whilst a merged Hull side that nobody in the City would want play New York, Toronto and Vladivostok Mules in some contrived 'elite' competition? 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Says who? 

The negative reaction to Toronto and before them Catalans and London and in particular the way the goalposts for Toronto kept getting moved.

[TIWIT]

52 minutes ago, milpool said:

Why on earth would I want to watch Hull KR in a semi-pro league, whilst a merged Hull side that nobody in the City would want play New York, Toronto and Vladivostok Mules in some contrived 'elite' competition? 

Exactly the attitude that's holding the game back.

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So which comes first the League or the Clubs? 

Think long and hard about that one and before you answer weigh up the objections that either choice would bring to the table.

In the cases of all the various startup leagues which have come along in North America the League invariably came first, then it sold franchises to investors on the basis of its plan and what that plan offered them.  That's what I envision.

4 hours ago, DeadShotKeen said:

I think you're focusing too much on a small aspect of what McGuire is saying. Aren't most big football teams also located in "disadvantaged" cities/towns? How much money does the average Liverpudlian have? Or Mancunian? etc. Sport is a vital part of many peoples' lives and generally people on modest incomes will find the money to enjoy live sport. It's not for nothing that the most passionate sports fans actually tend to be those in the more disadvantaged areas. It can be an asset not a drawback.

What's important (and what I think McGuire is getting at) is the saturation of established RL areas. It's no good having like 6 or 7 pro teams across West Yorkshire and expecting them all to thrive (or even survive). When you add in the "disadvantaged" aspect it adds another dimension but even if that was an affluent area you would still want some redefinition of the elite level landscape. It's all about creating the right number of elite teams for each area is all. The economics vis a vis "bums on seats" then look after themselves.

No, if you listen to those podcasts McGuire makes clear that the poor economy of the game's traditional heartland is the reason why the game is so chronically short of money for the simple reason that the sort of money needed for big time pro sport nowadays isn't present in those towns.  He points out that because of that, RL clubs face problems which their counterparts in other sports can't even imagine.

4 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

I think he wants 10 people with a minimum of £500m GBP net worth each to establish a Club and come together to form a League in which they individually own a 1/10 share of, as well as 100% owning their own Club. The kind of RL owner / investors he needs are substantially richer than your Argyles, Koukashs & Caddicks......and totally blow out of the water your Wigan, Warrington, Saints, Catalans, Hull FC owners. 

If you remember, Toronto coming in led to speculation about whether RL would have a multinational Pro 14 style league at some point and a league of that type would require owners of that sort.  Arygyle is substantially richer than your Koukashs and Caddicks; just imagine what a whole league of Torontos could do for the sport's profile and image.

[Griff]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Well you can put them there Griff, but will they stay there?

Depends.

Maybe there's no relegation.

Maybe the owner gets fed up of pumping money into his project.

Who knows ?