RFL to scrap promotion and relegation

[dkw]

7 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

But it isn't Supporters like Gubrats and others on here who attend games, myself included, and spend their money who hold the game back, it is the people who are responsible for running the game at the RFL and SL Administrators and Club Owners are the ones with the power who can make the decisions, regarding Expansion, Sponsorship, TV Contracts, the Welfare of the game etc. Debating on here can be enjoyable or frustrating, but they are only opinions of people showing an interest in the game, it doesn't effect what the powers that be decide to do.

Its sort of both, the clubs rely on the fans who turn up to every single game, they need the steady income and backing. Strangely though they are probably the least "profitable" match day goers for clubs, the ones who have a season ticket, go to their local pub before games with their mates, go to the game, then back to their local pub.The big money lies in the day trippers, the ones who go go the stadium bars, buy in the club shop, buy the programme, the sponsors lounge dwellers etc. Its the same in all top level sport now, the die hards arent who are being targeted money wise as they know theirs no point. 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Discounted tickets, yes I agree.

Raising ticket prices in half empty stadiums is not clever. 

 

Whilst over supply is an issue at some clubs, I'd argue that the point about perception still stands. The perception of the sport being one that "can't be that good if you're selling it for that" isn't helping is fill the other half of the ground.

Whilst Huddersfield games are usually half empty, selling season tickets at half the price of an annual Netflix subscription arguably a part of the problem. How can a sport that is as good as we try to claim it is be worth so little?

[Smudger06]

7 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Whilst over supply is an issue at some clubs, I'd argue that the point about perception still stands. The perception of the sport being one that "can't be that good if you're selling it for that" isn't helping is fill the other half of the ground.

Whilst Huddersfield games are usually half empty, selling season tickets at half the price of an annual Netflix subscription arguably a part of the problem. How can a sport that is as good as we try to claim it is be worth so little?

Rugby League, a game for all, we will never price families and low income young people out of our game. 

[whatmichaelsays]

4 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Rugby League, a game for all, we will never price families and low income young people out of our game. 

Nobody is saying we should, but we should also be catering for those who want more from their entertainment and can afford to pay for it.

We should also be pricing it at a point where people see it as worth getting out of the house for. Pricing it as a quality form of entertainment. 

We're not talking about Arsenal FC style pricing here but if the game keeps pricing it as a bargain basement sport, keeping it cheap because the core fan base keeps demanding that it stays cheap, it will keep declining.

[paulwalker71]

26 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

But it isn't Supporters like Gubrats and others on here who attend games, myself included, and spend their money who hold the game back, it is the people who are responsible for running the game at the RFL and SL Administrators and Club Owners are the ones with the power who can make the decisions, regarding Expansion, Sponsorship, TV Contracts, the Welfare of the game etc. Debating on here can be enjoyable or frustrating, but they are only opinions of people showing an interest in the game, it doesn't effect what the powers that be decide to do.

Perhaps part of the problem is that many of the owners, administrators and leaders in Rugby League are, in effect, 'fans who happen to have money'. Or in the case of those working at the RFL, 'fans who just stuck around and rose to the top as other people left'

May be a tad harsh, but I think there's something in it. Our friend Mr Beaumont, for example, is a self-confessed Leigh supporter who has done pretty well in his business and can throw money at the club. That's all well and good for Leigh, but it's never going to lead to strategic, visionary planning for the game. 

What we lack across the whole sport are quality people who have appointed and given real power to effect change who don't have vested interests or club loyalties at the core of their actions.

[Damien]

I agree with the points being made by whatmichaelsays and they are points that various posters have raised for a long time on here, probably for as long as I can remember. The trouble is little ever seems to change.

I also have little time for derogatory comments from people that denounce the opinions of others like they know nothing because it is a forum. From reading the posts and learning a little about the background of a number of posters on here I would 100% bank on them to do a good job when it comes to improving a RL club or the sport through the RFL. The trouble is that successful people who actually know what they are talking about, and actually get paid and rewarded rather well, are unlikely to be near a RL club or employed by the RFL. That is perhaps part of the problem.

[HKR AWAY DAYS]

Just wake me up when they decide what they're doing. Cheers...

[Smudger06]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree with the points being made by whatmichaelsays and they are points that various posters have raised for a long time on here, probably for as long as I can remember. The trouble is little ever seems to change.

I also have little time for derogatory comments from people that denounce the opinions of others like they know nothing because it is a forum. From reading the posts and learning a little about the background of a number of posters on here I would 100% bank on them to do a good job when it comes to improving a RL club or the sport through the RFL. The trouble is that successful people who actually know what they are talking about, and actually get paid and rewarded rather well, are unlikely to be near a RL club or employed by the RFL. That is perhaps part of the problem.

Very noble. Is it more likely you don't like the opinions of others been denounced, when those opinions conform with your own?

I'll be on the look out for more moral fibre the next time someone is getting hammered for expressing an opinion. Which happens frequently. 

[Griff]

15 hours ago, Gooleboy said:

They kicked Featherstone and Salford out, simples.

That could happen again.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Its sort of both, the clubs rely on the fans who turn up to every single game, they need the steady income and backing. Strangely though they are probably the least "profitable" match day goers for clubs, the ones who have a season ticket, go to their local pub before games with their mates, go to the game, then back to their local pub.The big money lies in the day trippers, the ones who go go the stadium bars, buy in the club shop, buy the programme, the sponsors lounge dwellers etc. Its the same in all top level sport now, the die hards arent who are being targeted money wise as they know theirs no point. 

Totally agree, and yes I am one of those pub first, then game, then pub.

But by 'day trippers' do you mean the 'Away Fans'? Careful dk we are informed that these people don't matter. If by 'day trippers' though you mean those not tied to either club who make the journey specifically to watch the game, or by coincidence they are in the town on a match day and decide to go?

Tell me please, you live in one if the most visited parts of the country does the 'day tripper' aspect have any effect on the crowd numbers at your home games? 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Very noble. Is it more likely you don't like the opinions of others been denounced, when those opinions conform with your own?

I'll be on the look out for more moral fibre the next time someone is getting hammered for expressing an opinion. Which happens frequently. 

No. I always have time for those that present a well reasoned argument. I may not particularly like it but I can respect it. Someone like Dave T springs to mind. I have had some right debates with him over the salary cap over the years but I respect him and his opinion because he argues well, factually and doesn't make things up. Dunbar is another. I could go on. 

You seem to have left out the opinions of others like they know nothing because it is a forum part. It is not just expressing an opinion, it is being able to back up that opinion. I have read enough from whatmichaelsays that makes me think he knows what he is talking about and he backs up what he says. I have little time for the opinions of those that aren't based on fact, any evidence and as often happens on here are made up and little more than trolling. When people argue apples v oranges or that the sky is pink I don't agree that is someone expressing an opinion. I'm sure you can tell the difference.

[Lowdesert]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Its sort of both, the clubs rely on the fans who turn up to every single game, they need the steady income and backing. Strangely though they are probably the least "profitable" match day goers for clubs, the ones who have a season ticket, go to their local pub before games with their mates, go to the game, then back to their local pub.The big money lies in the day trippers, the ones who go go the stadium bars, buy in the club shop, buy the programme, the sponsors lounge dwellers etc. Its the same in all top level sport now, the die hards arent who are being targeted money wise as they know theirs no point. 

Beer aside, people will pay the going rate, for whatever it is, and be happy doing it. 

But I think many, are more tuned in to the quality they are receiving these days. So, pleasant, efficient service, good facilities, decent parking and better quality food stays in the memory for positive reasons.  Travelling issues, tripping over potholes and debris in the car park, warm, watery beer or a 'soup' pie that burns your mouth are all negative memories.

A little customer care goes a long way imo and I dont mind paying for that.

[Gooleboy]

51 minutes ago, HKR AWAY DAYS said:

Just wake me up when they decide what they're doing. Cheers...

You may wake up to the news that man has landed on Mars.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

13 hours ago, Padge said:

The British sport business model is broken beyond repair.

And always has been.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Whilst over supply is an issue at some clubs, I'd argue that the point about perception still stands. The perception of the sport being one that "can't be that good if you're selling it for that" isn't helping is fill the other half of the ground.

Whilst Huddersfield games are usually half empty, selling season tickets at half the price of an annual Netflix subscription arguably a part of the problem. How can a sport that is as good as we try to claim it is be worth so little?

Hi Micheal, can you please explain to me why those German supermarkets such as Aldi and Lidl, are the fastest growing food retail buisnesses in the UK (if not in Europe, but that is a blind guess) yes they now advertise well but that took a long time coming till they established a foothold, but the truth is the key to their success is that they are "cost effective" and that is the real reason people return and they entice new customer's.

Look, whatever my club would decide to do I will still go along and if they can generate huge profits from doing so that would be great, but as dkw said above there will be those who only want to go for the game, I fall firmly into that category.

Now with your cost increase for the product on offer is that just for the game, or with some other gameday added attraction? If just for the game I will go back to my supermarket analogy, people who have shifted allegiance to those German businesses and enjoy the price they are paying rarely return to their 'original' choice of Tesco, Asda etc, in fact those 'established' supermarkets are trying to emulate the Germans by bringing out more cost effective ranges under 'own' brands, which in most cases are exactly the same product just packaged differently.

So, if people have got used to 'paying' a certain price and you wish to increase it do you not envisage that you will lose some spectators, put another way would you be confident that you can eclipse your losses with new customer's? It would be very interesting to see which club(s) would be the first to take the venture. 

On other point you raise that RL clubs are not prepared to pay for 'quality' marketing people, I would *offer them the conditions of the old type of travelling salesmen who got paid a pittance of a retainer but if he was proficient he made good money on the increased proffits the company made, if that was the case I don't think any RL club would turn the marketing guru's away it would be a win win for them, on the other hand if having been paid big bucks and the marketeers system fails, they walk away having lost nothing but a bit of reputation and the client loses substantial amounts, would you work under those conditions?

* I did exactly that and requested a couple of marketing companies I interviewed to work on a commision basis of increased proffits, they declined the offer.

[Gerrumonside ref]

If it’s true that we’re heading for the worst recession seen for a long, long time then rugby league will be competing against food on the table and new clothing rather than Netflix in people’s budgets in many areas.

I can see the logic in what some people are arguing on this thread, but I think some of it is outdated by the ‘new normal’ that is the post COVID 19 economy.

As for new fans, I think the question you’ve  got to ask yourself is how easy is it to attract people to a sport they’ve never played themselves.  Why would they choose it over other sports and how easy is this sport to follow?  How did American Football do it in the UK?  

 

[Adelaide Tiger]

Here is my simple summation after 19 pages:

1. Some clubs objective is just to continually tread water as it means that in a ‘normal year’ I.e. without a pandemic, they are able to survive.  Some people on here prefer that approach as it usually means that their team remains at the top table or it offers an opportunity to gain promotion.

2. However, the goal of other clubs is to get out of the water.  Again some on here, including myself prefer this view.  However it does mean that to remain at the top table some clubs, including my club Castleford, have to change their methodology to adapt. This approach will mean that some teams lose their SL place and it will make promotion for some clubs extremely difficult.

Neither of the above approaches can guarantee 100% that the game will grow but IMHO option 2 is the only option that offers a chance for the game to grow.
 

 

[Smudger06]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Micheal, can you please explain to me why those German supermarkets such as Aldi and Lidl, are the fastest growing food retail buisnesses in the UK (if not in Europe, but that is a blind guess) yes they now advertise well but that took a long time coming till they established a foothold, but the truth is the key to their success is that they are "cost effective" and that is the real reason people return and they entice new customer's.

Look, whatever my club would decide to do I will still go along and if they can generate huge profits from doing so that would be great, but as dkw said above there will be those who only want to go for the game, I fall firmly into that category.

Now with your cost increase for the product on offer is that just for the game, or with some other gameday added attraction? If just for the game I will go back to my supermarket analogy, people who have shifted allegiance to those German businesses and enjoy the price they are paying rarely return to their 'original' choice of Tesco, Asda etc, in fact those 'established' supermarkets are trying to emulate the Germans by bringing out more cost effective ranges under 'own' brands, which in most cases are exactly the same product just packaged differently.

So, if people have got used to 'paying' a certain price and you wish to increase it do you not envisage that you will lose some spectators, put another way would you be confident that you can eclipse your losses with new customer's? It would be very interesting to see which club(s) would be the first to take the venture. 

On other point you raise that RL clubs are not prepared to pay for 'quality' marketing people, I would *offer them the conditions of the old type of travelling salesmen who got paid a pittance of a retainer but if he was proficient he made good money on the increased proffits the company made, if that was the case I don't think any RL club would turn the marketing guru's away it would be a win win for them, on the other hand if having been paid big bucks and the marketeers system fails, they walk away having lost nothing but a bit of reputation and the client loses substantial amounts, would you work under those conditions?

* I did exactly that and requested a couple of marketing companies I interviewed to work on a commision basis of increased proffits, they declined the offer.

Indeed. Existing punters would look at the rise in price and then look around the spare seats in the stadium and think they were been taken for complete mugs. That likelyhood, taken with an example of a  League that's been very successful at attracting large crowds, the Big Bash League in Australia with it's affordable 'bargain' price ticketing strategy pretty much puts the arguement to bed.

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Indeed. Existing punters would look at the rise in price and then look around the spare seats in the stadium and think they were been taken for complete mugs. That likelyhood, taken with an example of a  League that's been very successful at attracting large crowds, the Big Bash League in Australia with it's affordable 'bargain' price ticketing strategy pretty much puts the arguement to bed.

I agree with this as scoring a ticket for anything that is widely popular like a sports final that is sold out, and being a part of that, is a story worth telling to other people.

Spending £££s on something that wasn’t popular isn’t something that anyone with any sense is going to readily talk about.

There’s some basic psychology over seeing a large crowd attracted to something and a feeling in yourself it might be worth checking out that trumps making things expensive and exclusive - certainly where sport is concerned.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Indeed. Existing punters would look at the rise in price and then look around the spare seats in the stadium and think they were been taken for complete mugs. That likelyhood, taken with an example of a  League that's been very successful at attracting large crowds, the Big Bash League in Australia with it's affordable 'bargain' price ticketing strategy pretty much puts the arguement to bed.

On that respect, Golf clubs in Scotland even Championship grade venues are very much more cost effective than English clubs to become a member off and are subsequently subscribed to very well, if south of the border was in the same price respects, then I doubt they would be struggling for member's as much, off course there will be exceptions to the rule.

[Dave T]

At the risk of repeating myself (although why not isn't that we all do here ) - I don't see an issue with cheap tickets and offers, I think we miss the market for the 'Premium' end of the market though. If we are truly a game for all, that doesn't mean just aiming at the less affluent end of the market, we should be aiming at wider segments of the market. 

If we want to sell tickets for a tenner, then we have cheap seats for them. But we should also be selling Premium seats at a higher price, and more experiences at the top end. Things like horse-racing have decent ranges for pricing. They have the cheap family seats, and they have the premium "treat yourself" experiences too, and they are always popular.

I think some clubs do some of this ok, but not brilliantly.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

At the risk of repeating myself (although why not isn't that we all do here ) - I don't see an issue with cheap tickets and offers, I think we miss the market for the 'Premium' end of the market though. If we are truly a game for all, that doesn't mean just aiming at the less affluent end of the market, we should be aiming at wider segments of the market. 

If we want to sell tickets for a tenner, then we have cheap seats for them. But we should also be selling Premium seats at a higher price, and more experiences at the top end. Things like horse-racing have decent ranges for pricing. They have the cheap family seats, and they have the premium "treat yourself" experiences too, and they are always popular.

I think some clubs do some of this ok, but not brilliantly.

I think there is a place for this and have noticed this is something that Swinton have been pushing at Sale.

[Lowdesert]

48 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Micheal, can you please explain to me why those German supermarkets such as Aldi and Lidl, are the fastest growing food retail buisnesses in the UK (if not in Europe, but that is a blind guess) yes they now advertise well but that took a long time coming till they established a foothold, but the truth is the key to their success is that they are "cost effective" and that is the real reason people return and they entice new customer's.

Look, whatever my club would decide to do I will still go along and if they can generate huge profits from doing so that would be great, but as dkw said above there will be those who only want to go for the game, I fall firmly into that category.

Now with your cost increase for the product on offer is that just for the game, or with some other gameday added attraction? If just for the game I will go back to my supermarket analogy, people who have shifted allegiance to those German businesses and enjoy the price they are paying rarely return to their 'original' choice of Tesco, Asda etc, in fact those 'established' supermarkets are trying to emulate the Germans by bringing out more cost effective ranges under 'own' brands, which in most cases are exactly the same product just packaged differently.

So, if people have got used to 'paying' a certain price and you wish to increase it do you not envisage that you will lose some spectators, put another way would you be confident that you can eclipse your losses with new customer's? It would be very interesting to see which club(s) would be the first to take the venture. 

On other point you raise that RL clubs are not prepared to pay for 'quality' marketing people, I would *offer them the conditions of the old type of travelling salesmen who got paid a pittance of a retainer but if he was proficient he made good money on the increased proffits the company made, if that was the case I don't think any RL club would turn the marketing guru's away it would be a win win for them, on the other hand if having been paid big bucks and the marketeers system fails, they walk away having lost nothing but a bit of reputation and the client loses substantial amounts, would you work under those conditions?

* I did exactly that and requested a couple of marketing companies I interviewed to work on a commision basis of increased proffits, they declined the offer.

Ive been watching the 'All or Nothing' series on Amazon Prime with the NFL and one College Team.  A series like that on RL, specifically SL and showing positive views of the game (full seating areas, modern facilities) would do more for our the game than anything.  

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Micheal, can you please explain to me why those German supermarkets such as Aldi and Lidl, are the fastest growing food retail buisnesses in the UK (if not in Europe, but that is a blind guess) yes they now advertise well but that took a long time coming till they established a foothold, but the truth is the key to their success is that they are "cost effective" and that is the real reason people return and they entice new customer's.

Look, whatever my club would decide to do I will still go along and if they can generate huge profits from doing so that would be great, but as dkw said above there will be those who only want to go for the game, I fall firmly into that category.

Now with your cost increase for the product on offer is that just for the game, or with some other gameday added attraction? If just for the game I will go back to my supermarket analogy, people who have shifted allegiance to those German businesses and enjoy the price they are paying rarely return to their 'original' choice of Tesco, Asda etc, in fact those 'established' supermarkets are trying to emulate the Germans by bringing out more cost effective ranges under 'own' brands, which in most cases are exactly the same product just packaged differently.

So, if people have got used to 'paying' a certain price and you wish to increase it do you not envisage that you will lose some spectators, put another way would you be confident that you can eclipse your losses with new customer's? It would be very interesting to see which club(s) would be the first to take the venture. 

On other point you raise that RL clubs are not prepared to pay for 'quality' marketing people, I would *offer them the conditions of the old type of travelling salesmen who got paid a pittance of a retainer but if he was proficient he made good money on the increased proffits the company made, if that was the case I don't think any RL club would turn the marketing guru's away it would be a win win for them, on the other hand if having been paid big bucks and the marketeers system fails, they walk away having lost nothing but a bit of reputation and the client loses substantial amounts, would you work under those conditions?

* I did exactly that and requested a couple of marketing companies I interviewed to work on a commision basis of increased proffits, they declined the offer.

The point I'm making on pricing is not necessarily that it needs to be higher, but that it needs to be believable.

I'd argue that the point about Aldi and Lidl working so itheir approach can work for RL too is a bit of a non sequitur as you're comparing a functional necessity with an entertainment product, but let's run with it for the purpose of this discussion.

Aldi and Lidl, they sell themselves on being cheap and functional. You can believe the price on offer because you can see where the cost cutting is. If Sainsbury's or Waitrose started selling chicken breasts at Aldi prices, you'd be wondering which corners they cut - whether the quality was lower or if the welfare standards had fallen. 

Aldi cannot be Waitrose and Waitrose cannot be Aldi, because the positioning and experience is very different.

What RL does is try and sell itself as a Waitrose sport at Aldi prices. We call ourselves "the greatest game" and then struggle to sell it on Groupon two days before the event. That's where it doesn't work.

If we're such a great sport, why do we need to give away discounts, when other sports are over-subscribed at three times the price?

If we're selling the sport cheap, how can we deliver the "world class talent and entertainment" that the game purports to be selling?

The point is that the price neither has to be higher or lower - it just needs to be believable.

Can RL sell itself as a form of "cheap and functional" entertainment in an Aldi-esque style? Probably. Should it? Probably not. How many times have you been asked "how was your weekend" and responded "brilliant - I had a great cheap and functional weekend - can't wait for the next one!" 

How this enhanced experience is paid for is essentially through the clubs selling more. Every unsold ticket is money left on the table - the issue here is whether the clubs have the ability and confidence to deliver what people are willing to pay for. I'll repeat the point earlier that enhancing the experience is about removing the variance in the product - removing the idea that it's not worth going to the game, because the game might be pants and instead, ensuring that no matter how turgid the game is, people can still have an enjoyable time.

On your point on about working on performance related contracts, I have and still do, but even in those circumstances, certainly don't sell myself short (for a "pittance", to use your word). Nobody decent needs to work on those terms because it isn't hard for them to find clients that value their time.

But the problem with such an approach is that it leads to shortermism. Get someone in on such a contract and they'll work on something that gets small results quickly, ignoring the long term strategy.

[Gerrumonside ref]

I’ve thought about the arguments on here about away fans, but I must admit that it always seemed to me to be a strength in watching rugby league and a weakness in watching football.

Yes, of course great atmospheres can be stirred up by tribal rivalries and it’s great to have a good sing song and go through your team’s own victory songs.  But most games aren’t like that and it can be just as enjoyable to have a really good discussion with a fan of another team on their exploits as well as your own.

In football generally it’s hard to do that at the match, but I used to love the fact that in rugby league the tribal aspect could be stripped away and people could stand together and watch and discuss the same match.

In modern parlance it would seem to me to be a positive USP (unique selling point).