Man of Kent Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Super League will resume next month without scrums, ostensibly on health grounds. The fact rugby league can ditch them even temporarily shows how peripheral to the game they are these days. In truth, the scrum is a glorified play-the-ball. They are no more than vestigial, a coccyx bone, evidence of our ancestors and evolution. My view is rugby league is Homo sapiens and rugby union is Homo neanderthal, and further evolution of our game away from the other code should be welcomed. I expect they won’t be missed. But should they return? If so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: Super League will resume next month without scrums, ostensibly on health grounds. The fact rugby league can ditch them even temporarily shows how peripheral to the game they are these days. In truth, the scrum is a glorified play-the-ball. They are no more than vestigial, a coccyx bone, evidence of our ancestors and evolution. My view is rugby league is Homo sapiens and rugby union is Homo neanderthal, and further evolution of our game away from the other code should be welcomed. I expect they won’t be missed. But should they return? If so, why? I'd not miss them if they didn't come back. But it does mean the game will have far fewer natural pauses and that will make it even more demanding to play. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rocket Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, gingerjon said: I'd not miss them if they didn't come back. But it does mean the game will have far fewer natural pauses and that will make it even more demanding to play. Can`t imagine League without them. There is still occasionally the big push to win one against the feed ,which is quite exciting to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tms Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 i think they should be brought back with a few changes 1 all six forwards named should pack down instead of hiding stand off who cant tackle at loose forward 2 ball should be put in tunnel not back of second rows leg so you can have push to win one against the feed , 3 when #### awarded should always pack down on a imaginary line in the middle of the park running between the posts so teams have two sides to attack and defend instead of all lining up on one side of the scrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I haven’t kept up with the scrum issue but I understand it as been removed for virus related purposes which imo is hogwash. If it’s safe to play then that’s it. There will be enough close contacts to breath in airborne globules and virus (if any) on skin/hair/shorts/boots/ball etc. Take the scrums away and the game would become too quick and frantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Haven't we had a few of these scrum threads in the last couple of months? Maybe we should kill off the scrum permanently to stop threads about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I'd prefer them back, all-be-it with changes. Game seems to be slowing moving towards (below head level) basketball... wonder were it will be in 5-10 with more tinkering to speed play and keep it flowing up and down the pitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiganermike Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Man of Kent said: Super League will resume next month without scrums, ostensibly on health grounds. The fact rugby league can ditch them even temporarily shows how peripheral to the game they are these days. In truth, the scrum is a glorified play-the-ball. They are no more than vestigial, a coccyx bone, evidence of our ancestors and evolution. My view is rugby league is Homo sapiens and rugby union is Homo neanderthal, and further evolution of our game away from the other code should be welcomed. I expect they won’t be missed. But should they return? If so, why? It's the other way around, the play the ball is a lesser scrum. Always was in a sense as the play the ball was initially introduced as a 2 man (tackled player opposed by marker defender) scrum with the marker defender being able to strike for the ball with the foot like the hooker in a full (6 v 6) scrum. Only later was the ability to strike for the ball outlawed. The previous method of restart before the play the ball was introduced following a tackle had been to form a full scrum each time. The degeneration of the scrum to the non-contest it is today is a factor that may lead to it never coming back as it is no longer a key factor in competition for possession as once it was. I suppose it will depend on what effect the removal of scrums has on the games in practice during the remainder of this season as to whether it is decided to either bring them back or make the removal permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 The scrum has been allowed to disintegrate into a complete farce by the authorities and officials . It’s an embarrassment because it’s been allowed to be . Coaches have joined in by the positioning of players at them .So here we are . A scrum was a contest for the ball , if there’s one of those now the refs head explodes and he doesn’t know what to do . A scrum should be a contest again with a proper feed and actual proper forwards in it .... and backs who are set up to make something of an attacking chance , but if noones bothered and it continues as this joke then it will wither away not to be missed . We now have Junior Paulo at stand off . We’ve let it get to where we are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 My personal view is that older supporters, such as myself, tend to look back on scrums as being from some sort of golden age. My recollection of the last c20 years of scrums, however, is that they were a complete shambles, almost impossible to referee properly without the game lasting for 2+ hours and penalised seemingly arbitrarily. They were, in fact, detrimental to the whole RL spectacle and, certainly via televised games, a source of ridicule of the game. Wind forward to the present day and I also believe that the sheer athleticism of the modern day RL player would make "proper" scrums pretty well impossible without there being some very serious injuries as a result. I would like to see scrums retained, albeit in our current artificial form, as they do provide a brief pause from the usual frenetic progress of the game. Without them and with the advent of the "six more" rule we will be in danger of becoming a glorified form of touch rugby, in my opinion, of course. Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Good riddance to an archaic restart thats no longer relevant in Rugby League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfranco Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Personally, I don't see that scrums as we currently have them add anything much to the game - a chance for a small rest is about it. Therefore I don't think we will miss them as the rest of this season plays out - but let's judge that as we watch the season and at the end of it. There's a big but coming though... BUT, we all know that as far as rule changes go the English game these days tends to just fall into line with whatever the NRL does, and no-one seems keener on that than Robert Elstone. So, even if we play out this season and decide it was a positive change, unless the movers and shakers in the NRL see it and decide to adopt the change as well, I think we'll be back to 'as you were' on scrums come next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rocket Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 4 hours ago, redjonn said: I'd prefer them back, all-be-it with changes. Game seems to be slowing moving towards (below head level) basketball... wonder were it will be in 5-10 with more tinkering to speed play and keep it flowing up and down the pitch Always thought that basketball needs tackling to make it more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rocket Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, mrfranco said: There's a big but coming though Franco , what`s with the picture of the moose on your profile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfranco Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Rocket said: Franco , what`s with the picture of the moose on your profile? It's due to time spent in Scandinavia (and Canada) when I was a much younger man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Blind side johnny said: My personal view is that older supporters, such as myself, tend to look back on scrums as being from some sort of golden age. My recollection of the last c20 years of scrums, however, is that they were a complete shambles, almost impossible to referee properly without the game lasting for 2+ hours and penalised seemingly arbitrarily. They were, in fact, detrimental to the whole RL spectacle and, certainly via televised games, a source of ridicule of the game. Wind forward to the present day and I also believe that the sheer athleticism of the modern day RL player would make "proper" scrums pretty well impossible without there being some very serious injuries as a result. I would like to see scrums retained, albeit in our current artificial form, as they do provide a brief pause from the usual frenetic progress of the game. Without them and with the advent of the "six more" rule we will be in danger of becoming a glorified form of touch rugby, in my opinion, of course. People used to have belief in the premise of the scrum like they did the tooth fairy. And some still do despite abundant extant footage graphically illustrating the debacle they mostly were. Quite apart from the nonsensical mess, the scrum as a contest for possession never fitted with limited tackles. The combination all but guaranteed a stoppage and an eyesore after every six plays, either by law or by the ball being routinely banged over the sideline. If, after the introduction of limited possession, we had defined the contest differently, similar to that of the RU scrum, where it was about pushing against the feed rather than striking against the head, things might not have degenerated to the uncontested futility we now have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullman Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Lowdesert said: I haven’t kept up with the scrum issue but I understand it as been removed for virus related purposes which imo is hogwash. If it’s safe to play then that’s it. There will be enough close contacts to breath in airborne globules and virus (if any) on skin/hair/shorts/boots/ball etc. Take the scrums away and the game would become too quick and frantic. Agree on both points, mate. If it's not safe to have scrums it's not safe to play. Disappointed that when the game resumes it's going to be as Rugby League Lite but the scrum will be back I'm sure of that. "I'm from a fishing family. Trawlermen are like pirates with biscuits." - Lucy Beaumont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 7 hours ago, POR said: i think they should be brought back with a few changes 1 all six forwards named should pack down instead of hiding stand off who cant tackle at loose forward 2 ball should be put in tunnel not back of second rows leg so you can have push to win one against the feed , 3 when #### awarded should always pack down on a imaginary line in the middle of the park running between the posts so teams have two sides to attack and defend instead of all lining up on one side of the scrum I fully agree with the first two points but not the third. The advantage of a scrum is greatest when it's closest to one sideline, because then there's more space for the team which wins the scrum to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tms Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 18 minutes ago, Big Picture said: I fully agree with the first two points but not the third. The advantage of a scrum is greatest when it's closest to one sideline, because then there's more space for the team which wins the scrum to use. disagree if you force the six players not involved in the #### to split into two and cover 30 yards or so on either side it will give you a lot more space to attack and unlike now the defence wont know which side the balls going to be run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldofclothofgold Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I have to admit I miss the proper scrums ,but these uncontested things are an embarrassment. Why didnt they abolish the scrums instead of having this charade . What concerns me though if they do permanently abolish the scrums would it end there ? Would they then start to look at reducing the teams from 13 to say 11 ? Soon we will be dancing the fandangoFROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.JAMIE PEACOCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentoffagain2 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 49 minutes ago, Big Picture said: I fully agree with the first two points but not the third. The advantage of a scrum is greatest when it's closest to one sideline, because then there's more space for the team which wins the scrum to use. Me too.Scrums give a team chance to regroup and canny coaches often had moves from a scrum.What was better than seeeing a Scrum Half work the blind side.But when he tried it again the loose forward clattered him.Never mind scrums there are not many proper Loose Forwards in todays game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 7 hours ago, wiganermike said: It's the other way around, the play the ball is a lesser scrum. Always was in a sense as the play the ball was initially introduced as a 2 man (tackled player opposed by marker defender) scrum with the marker defender being able to strike for the ball with the foot like the hooker in a full (6 v 6) scrum. Only later was the ability to strike for the ball outlawed. The previous method of restart before the play the ball was introduced following a tackle had been to form a full scrum each time. Absolutely, Mike, but that was 114 years ago. As you say, the scrum has deteriorated to a point where it is no longer a set-piece contest for possession. But I would argue that it is the beauty of the modern day rules of rugby league - they compel aides to attack. In that regard, scrums are an anachronism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 8 hours ago, DavidM said: The scrum has been allowed to disintegrate into a complete farce by the authorities and officials . It’s an embarrassment because it’s been allowed to be . Coaches have joined in by the positioning of players at them .So here we are . A scrum was a contest for the ball , if there’s one of those now the refs head explodes and he doesn’t know what to do . A scrum should be a contest again with a proper feed and actual proper forwards in it .... and backs who are set up to make something of an attacking chance , but if noones bothered and it continues as this joke then it will wither away not to be missed . We now have Junior Paulo at stand off . We’ve let it get to where we are Would someone who played open-side prop in the good old scrum days explain how it was, when the opposition were supposed to have the loose head, he managed to get himself and his hooker in front and so far forward that the hooker`s boot prevented the ball travelling further than an inch when the half released it. Until proven wrong my assumption, based on many painful observations, remains that it happened because the front rows did not bind and everyone in the front row was not where he ought to be. Scrum believers always insisted that the ball should be put in the tunnel. What tunnel? All I remember was two hookers sat on top of each other where a tunnel should have been. There still ought to be a value in pushing against the feed, but teams can be forgiven for not bothering when, because of the angle of feed, the ball is in and out so quickly. We went from it being unacceptable to feed your own feet to being perfectly acceptable to feed the loose forward. There ought to be something in between where we ban striking against the head, but require the half to feed his hooker, so the ball is in long enough to make a push against the feed worthwhile as disruption, and where the hooker has to make contact with the ball for it to be regarded as in play. This encourages the feeding team to pack with proper forwards to resist any push. If we want something better than we currently have we must finally abandon the contest for possession idea and devise the scrum rules as a contest for the quality of possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 As I have mentioned before on the scrum threads, before we decide that the scrum is an archaic throwback and decide to eliminate it, we need to think very carefully about how this change will affect the perception of the game with the wider public... you know, those people who we want to attract and become fans of our game. If we go back 40 years or so, at their heart, both codes both codes of rugby was a battle for possession of the ball and then what a team could do with the ball once they have secured possession. In Rugby League, this was the play the ball and the scrum (which were both contestable) and in Union it was the ruck (following the tackle and ball release), the lineout and the scrum. In League (with the exception of the one on one steal) we have all but eliminated the contest for possession and the sport is now one of precision of execution. As Rugby League fans, we enjoy this but I would ask if it does us any favours in the bigger picture where the sport is often criticized as repetitive and predictable. I am very sure that handball is a very tactical game with subtleties of formation and game plan but all I see is a ball being passed around and a goal scored every few minutes. It soon becomes repetitive and I switch off. Now, there is value in simplicity, I understand that. The likes of basketball and soccer are very simple games in structure but extremely popular but is Rugby League in danger of dumbing itself down to the point where people perceive it to be just 26 big athletic men running into each other for 80 minutes. We know it is not that but we are the choir here and we don't need converting. If we are absolutely convinced the sport will be better to watch, play and attract new fans without the scrum them let's crack on (in fact this may be a perfect excuse for an experiment) but I think we should be very wary of what we are turning the sport into... and each small change over the last 40 years or so could be sensible in their own right but the cumulative effect may not be what we intended. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 10 hours ago, wiganermike said: It's the other way around, the play the ball is a lesser scrum. Always was in a sense as the play the ball was initially introduced as a 2 man (tackled player opposed by marker defender) scrum with the marker defender being able to strike for the ball with the foot like the hooker in a full (6 v 6) scrum. Only later was the ability to strike for the ball outlawed. The previous method of restart before the play the ball was introduced following a tackle had been to form a full scrum each time. The degeneration of the scrum to the non-contest it is today is a factor that may lead to it never coming back as it is no longer a key factor in competition for possession as once it was. I suppose it will depend on what effect the removal of scrums has on the games in practice during the remainder of this season as to whether it is decided to either bring them back or make the removal permanent. I take your point and broadly correct. But the tackle was/is a 2 man (each side) ruck, not a scrum. It was intended to be contested, as was the scrum. I think the scrum should remain. I wonder in the original question is slightly trolling, although I think it's a fair enough opinion. But I suggest to everyone that the big point of a scrum is that it brings all the forwards together and allows space for the backs. I suppose this is less essential these days with the 11 yard line. (thats my bee in the bonnet of course) If we want to abolish the scrum then we should replace it by a line of scrimmage. This would maintain the opportunity for the backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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