DavidM Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, Dunbar said: In League (with the exception of the one on one steal) we have all but eliminated the contest for possession and the sport is now one of precision of execution. As Rugby League fans, we enjoy this but I would ask if it does us any favours in the bigger picture where the sport is often criticized as repetitive and predictable. Totally agree . I sometimes like to ask non-fans opinions of sports I love , just to get a snapshot . It’s interesting . Test cricket ... today I got ‘ I can’t watch this it’s too slow , I like 20/20 ‘ . And a friend came in during the Titans game and right away he said ‘ it always looks like the same thing is happening over n over when I watch this game ‘ . I said rubbish , but it does make you think ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, DavidM said: Totally agree . I sometimes like to ask non-fans opinions of sports I love , just to get a snapshot . It’s interesting . Test cricket ... today I got ‘ I can’t watch this it’s too slow , I like 20/20 ‘ . And a friend came in during the Titans game and right away he said ‘ it always looks like the same thing is happening over n over when I watch this game ‘ . I said rubbish , but it does make you think ! The first thing we need to do to attract more fans is to be honest with ourselves about which parts of the game is not appealing. Now, this doesn't mean we have to change but it gives us a starting point for our thinking. What does us no favours is this assumption that if only people were able to see the game they would fall in love with it. I guarantee that every sports fan in the country has seen Rugby League being played in one media or another. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Everything is weighted toward the team in possession , and retaining possession . I’ve done the different interpretation regards penalties and the latitude teams in possession get , but when the ball comes out often it seems the default , even if it’s unclear , is penalty ...to me it should be knock on unless there’s a reef at the ball . I think you should be able to strip it 2 on 1 anyway . Or hell, make it a contest for the ball till the ref calls held .Scrums are just an automatic retaining of the ball as well . There’s fewer ways of forcing back possession now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 I hear the point about repetitiveness and the lack of a contest and predictability. However, if you could start from scratch you wouldn’t come up with an RL scrum as an answer to that - they aren’t a contest and they are predictable! What’s the alternative? A centre bounce like Aussie Rules or a soccer-style drop ball by the ref? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Man of Kent said: I hear the point about repetitiveness and the lack of a contest and predictability. However, if you could start from scratch you wouldn’t come up with an RL scrum as an answer to that - they aren’t a contest and they are predictable! What’s the alternative? A centre bounce like Aussie Rules or a soccer-style drop ball by the ref? They were an answer but they’re not now . We’ve killed off the scrum by taking away any meaning it had making it a farce . There’s no point keeping this incarnation of it that’s for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 We’ve tinkered and innovated with so many areas of the game to evolve , but we’ve totally neglected scrums until it’s withered .As Dunbar says I can’t believe it’s beyond the wit of the authorities to make scrums something more than this , but the will wasn’t there so now commentators openly laugh at them . Now they’re on the near to extinction list . That’s pretty sad IMO but we’ll see . I’ll miss scrums , but I miss refs making decisions , the shoulder charge and punch ups . Maybe I’m just a dinosaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Just now, Man of Kent said: Fair enough. You’re one of those chaps who think rugby = scrums. Don’t think the days of contested scrums are coming back, for good or ill... If that's what you have taken from what I have said on the subject then you have completely misunderstood my point. It may be my fault if I haven't explained myself properly. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: If that's what you have taken from what I have said on the subject then you have completely misunderstood my point. It may be my fault if I haven't explained myself properly. Maybe I read ‘push’ and misunderstood. I’m well into a bottle of Bunnahabhain, so please excuse me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Man of Kent said: Maybe I read ‘push’ and misunderstood. I’m well into a bottle of Bunnahabhain, so please excuse me That's ok. I am on my 3rd Vesper so not probably not explaining myself well! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Rover Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I do feel that scrums can still have a future, provided that they are done properly. It is an aspect that differentiates rugby from other sports and does give the players a chance for a small breather which will be needed with the six again rule been adopted. It is the only time really when forwards are out of the way and the team in possession have a real chance to attack the defending teams back line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Ting Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 9 hours ago, The Rocket said: Always thought that basketball needs tackling to make it more interesting. You could call it Rocketball, or Rucketbull in NZ. Learn to listen without distortion and learn to look without imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Dunbar said: The first thing we need to do to attract more fans is to be honest with ourselves about which parts of the game is not appealing. Now, this doesn't mean we have to change but it gives us a starting point for our thinking. What does us no favours is this assumption that if only people were able to see the game they would fall in love with it. I guarantee that every sports fan in the country has seen Rugby League being played in one media or another. Most people will have seen some RL but I would argue never (certainly not in UK) with commentary and analysis anywhere near in tune with the modern game. To refer back to your earlier post that drew a distinction between games which have or do not have a regular contest for possession. So we have Soccer, RU, Aussie rules in the former group and American Football, Basketball, and (have to take your word for this) Handball in the latter group. Rugby league moved, beginning roughly 50 years ago, in stages, from the former to the latter group, but our culture has never fully adapted to the change. In Gridiron and basketball what you describe as "precision of execution" is recognised, and to be sometimes "repetitive and predictable", as part of the mix, is not seen as a shortcoming. They realise that sports without a regular contest for possession are more strategic and nuanced, and their culture reflects that. By contrast RL is still to a considerable extent viewed through the lens of either RU or unlimited possession RL. It`s not a perfect analogy but it`s worth looking at the perception of Soccer over the past say 40 years. Before, most people wanted the ball hit long and lots of aerial contests. It prompted angry impatience if the goalie didn`t kick and threw it out short. The kind of Premier League tippy-tappy passing of today would have gone down like a lead balloon. But from about Italia 90 onwards views changed. Soccer fans will be aware that an extended period of passing around at the back is, in itself, not the most exciting thing they could see. But they accept that it fits into the overall context of the game and remain engaged. In RL much of its compelling aspect is missed because the audience is given the impression that in between tries, big hits, and line breaks, nothing of interest is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copa Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldofclothofgold Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Those uncontested scrums are a bigger embarrassment than how the old ones became. I dont need to go through it again ,but at least they looked as though they were packing down for a reason. These uncontested scrums are getting worse , I've a stiff spine ,but I can bend better than them . Soon they will be just gathering in a group and the scrum half will roll it through their legs . OH wait ! Soon we will be dancing the fandangoFROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.JAMIE PEACOCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 I think there's some Rose tinted glasses regarding old scrums, the reason they evolved into uncontested ones was they were an absolute mess taking far too much time in a game. Watching older games during lockdown scrums were easily the worst thing about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said: Most people will have seen some RL but I would argue never (certainly not in UK) with commentary and analysis anywhere near in tune with the modern game. To refer back to your earlier post that drew a distinction between games which have or do not have a regular contest for possession. So we have Soccer, RU, Aussie rules in the former group and American Football, Basketball, and (have to take your word for this) Handball in the latter group. Rugby league moved, beginning roughly 50 years ago, in stages, from the former to the latter group, but our culture has never fully adapted to the change. In Gridiron and basketball what you describe as "precision of execution" is recognised, and to be sometimes "repetitive and predictable", as part of the mix, is not seen as a shortcoming. They realise that sports without a regular contest for possession are more strategic and nuanced, and their culture reflects that. By contrast RL is still to a considerable extent viewed through the lens of either RU or unlimited possession RL. It`s not a perfect analogy but it`s worth looking at the perception of Soccer over the past say 40 years. Before, most people wanted the ball hit long and lots of aerial contests. It prompted angry impatience if the goalie didn`t kick and threw it out short. The kind of Premier League tippy-tappy passing of today would have gone down like a lead balloon. But from about Italia 90 onwards views changed. Soccer fans will be aware that an extended period of passing around at the back is, in itself, not the most exciting thing they could see. But they accept that it fits into the overall context of the game and remain engaged. In RL much of its compelling aspect is missed because the audience is given the impression that in between tries, big hits, and line breaks, nothing of interest is happening. I don't disagree with much of what you say but I have to say it feels like clutching at straws to say the reason why Rugby League is not as popular as we would like it to be after 125 years of existence is the quality of the commentary and analysis. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 On 10/07/2020 at 08:40, Man of Kent said: Super League will resume next month without scrums, ostensibly on health grounds. The fact rugby league can ditch them even temporarily shows how peripheral to the game they are these days. In truth, the scrum is a glorified play-the-ball. They are no more than vestigial, a coccyx bone, evidence of our ancestors and evolution. My view is rugby league is Homo sapiens and rugby union is Homo neanderthal, and further evolution of our game away from the other code should be welcomed. I expect they won’t be missed. But should they return? If so, why? I think that's finally it for the RL scrum.... Would be amazed if it returns I think the NRL will do the same at the start of the start of next season Bookmark this page Mystic Bronco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tms Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 22 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said: I think that's finally it for the RL scrum.... Would be amazed if it returns I think the NRL will do the same at the start of the start of next season Bookmark this page Mystic Bronco no they won't https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-27/nrl-scintillating-scrums-rule-change-more-tries/12398868#:~:text=Last season 24 tries were,tackle immediately after the scrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 As I said on one of the other scrum threads I would be disappointed if we got rid of scrums. Scrums per se are not the problem, what they have been allowed to become is. The games administrators have badly let down the scrum and turned it into little more than a contestless way to restart the game. Scrums can be so much more than they are and should offer some much needed unpredictability and more of a contest for possession, two things the game greatly needs in my opinion. I love it when on the rare occasions a team does something different and actually pushes and wins a scrum against the head or a team executes a great attacking move. Just replacing the scrum with a tap or play the ball just adds to the sameness and criticisms that some have of the game. The coaches and players have also shown badly let down the scrum through a safety first approach and lack of creativity. However at the moment with the way scrums are there is little incentive to do anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 (Annoyingly) we have always had different laws in both hemispheres... mostly converging again after one adopts a change that has been introduced by another. Wouldn't it be nice for the global RL community to decide on law changes rather than national leagues. But I fear this change, if made permanent, would be a step too far. To have one of the top tier professional leagues played with scrums and one without is almost two different sports. We have too few international matches at the moment as it is without putting another barrier in the way like what @#$%ing laws we are going to play to. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 6 hours ago, POR said: no they won't https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-27/nrl-scintillating-scrums-rule-change-more-tries/12398868#:~:text=Last season 24 tries were,tackle immediately after the scrum. Yes the will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Get rid of the scrums I say, an infield 6 man line out would be a better way to restart the game and offer a fair competition for the ball. It would also give the tall lads an RL playing option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 14 hours ago, Dunbar said: I don't disagree with much of what you say but I have to say it feels like clutching at straws to say the reason why Rugby League is not as popular as we would like it to be after 125 years of existence is the quality of the commentary and analysis. It`s by no means the only factor, but media coverage sets the tone. Where else do people get their impressions of a sport other than through the various media? Only through playing it or word of mouth which will only ever reach small numbers. Looking at those sports, mainly American, which have secured some success in new markets in recent times, would they have managed that with the type of mainstream media treatment RL in the UK has had? Would the change in perception of Soccer have happened if they had the type of commentators and pundits we have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 18 hours ago, Copa said: This must be quite close to the very early (1906 till not sure when) version of the PTB. When the Northern Union decreed that the tackled player should be permitted to regain his feet to play the ball, it was regarded for some time as a "mini-scrum". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlno1 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 What a farce, and all officials, match and those running the sport just turn a blind eye. If cleaned up properly the scrum can be an asset to the game rather then the under 6 embarrassment it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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