Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 28 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said: Should we not consider the opinions of those who really matter in terms of tactics and strategies - i.e. the coaches? I don't seem to recall many of the current forward thinking coaches referring to props, second rows, or even loose forwards. They refer to middes, outers, edges, pivots etc revealing the actual atributes that they look for in their players. Their abilities in and around the scrum are regarded as irrelevant, because they really are. Absolutely mate. Didn't want to overcomplicate or over modernise for those still thinking scrum halves are small because they feed the scrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivans82 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Regarding scrums why not ask the players themselves their feelings on the matter and see what they come up with , they are the ones who actually play the game . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 21 minutes ago, ivans82 said: Regarding scrums why not ask the players themselves their feelings on the matter and see what they come up with , they are the ones who actually play the game . Which players? All of them? Just the pros? Just the amateurs? Which amateurs? Players should have some say in the governance of the game I agree but it becomes a bit of a mess in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 45 minutes ago, ivans82 said: Regarding scrums why not ask the players themselves their feelings on the matter and see what they come up with , they are the ones who actually play the game . Its probably 30 odd years too late for that, we already made these changes to get to where we are without consulting players. The game now has forwards who have little or no experience of competitive scrums and are now conditioned for the way the game is now. I cant see them coming up with little different than the status quo because quite frankly it is easier for them and they get a bit of a breather. If players were asked the same question years ago, players who again were conditioned and skilled for a different game, you'd have got a different answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I was actually having a look about the scrum and came across this article from about 6 years ago. In it Matt Cleary makes some very good points and actually discusses a lot of the points that people have mentioned. I touched on this point in particular earlier: Now, sure, if there were a contest for the ball in scrums there would be cheating. Scrums were once arcane, nasty bits of kit. Referees would pluck out penalties against both teams. They were “messy”. But rugby league too often wants “clean”. Rugby league wants perfect. Crisp, completed sets. Video referees. Black-and-white. But some of the best things about sport are random, messy, unscripted. And because players may cheat is surely not a reason not to police it. Rugby league once had scrums to contest possession. And today, without a way to legally get the ball back from one’s opponent save a one-on-one strip, rugby league has a “sameness” about it. And, for mine, the depowered, ritual scrum is a factor. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/aug/07/breaking-the-law-contested-scrums-rugby-league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 ‘Scrums should be sent packing’, by Buzz Rothfield. https://www.pressreader.com/australia/the-daily-telegraph-sydney/20200713/282660394718873 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Damien said: I was actually having a look about the scrum and came across this article from about 6 years ago. In it Matt Cleary makes some very good points and actually discusses a lot of the points that people have mentioned. I touched on this point in particular earlier: Now, sure, if there were a contest for the ball in scrums there would be cheating. Scrums were once arcane, nasty bits of kit. Referees would pluck out penalties against both teams. They were “messy”. But rugby league too often wants “clean”. Rugby league wants perfect. Crisp, completed sets. Video referees. Black-and-white. But some of the best things about sport are random, messy, unscripted. And because players may cheat is surely not a reason not to police it. Rugby league once had scrums to contest possession. And today, without a way to legally get the ball back from one’s opponent save a one-on-one strip, rugby league has a “sameness” about it. And, for mine, the depowered, ritual scrum is a factor. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/aug/07/breaking-the-law-contested-scrums-rugby-league Its an interesting article and it does seem like we need to find a way to make the scrum meaningful whilst still being effectively uncontested. Perhaps a set amount of time the scrum needs to stay bound for or something like that? Certain players have to be in the scrum to avoid having back rowers in the defensive line? "Proper" contested scrums are dead. They wouldn't just be messy, they'd be downright dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: They wouldn't just be messy, they'd be downright dangerous. What is your thinking here? I participated in lots of contested scrums in the 80's and watched thousands of them. I can't remember any contested scrums resulting in injury (maybe with the exception of foul play). "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSoutherner Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 In age grade union at younger ages and in the X7's format they have a "contested hook no shove" that would work in league with a neutral feed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, Dunbar said: What is your thinking here? I participated in lots of contested scrums in the 80's and watched thousands of them. I can't remember any contested scrums resulting in injury (maybe with the exception of foul play). Thinking that logically, with professionalism, we'd see scrums more like union - except without players trained to do so. From what I've seen, union scrums in the 70s/80s were relatively similar to league ones of that era (plus 4 players). Nowadays the players are much bigger and heavier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, Dunbar said: What is your thinking here? I participated in lots of contested scrums in the 80's and watched thousands of them. I can't remember any contested scrums resulting in injury (maybe with the exception of foul play). No disrespect to you Dunbar but I would suggest that the typical physique of professional and even semi-professional RL players is very different to what it was in the 80's. I am firmly of the opinion that properly contested scrums of twelve such individuals would be inherently dangerous and possibly even life threatening. Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said: No disrespect to you Dunbar but I would suggest that the typical physique of professional and even semi-professional RL players is very different to what it was in the 80's. I am firmly of the opinion that properly contested scrums of twelve such individuals would be inherently dangerous and possibly even life threatening. Seriously, you think asking the packs to bind properly, put the ball in the middle and push/hook for the ball is going to be life threatening? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Seriously, you think asking the packs to bind properly, put the ball in the middle and push/hook for the ball is going to be life threatening? If you don't know what to do/properly bind with over a tonne of force compressing on eachother its runs a risk of not ending well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 18 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Absolutely. They do not feature at all in any way whatsoever. Small players tend towards the halves (and I include the dummy halves in that) in League because they are the positions in which size is valued least. Nothing at all to do with the scrum. A scrum half or hooker can and needs to scoot, can have quick acceleration and can distribute. Can organise. A prop/"middle" can probably do one of those but not all. In the same way a centre can play stand off or wing if pressed, but neither of those can be a specialist centre. A winger needs pace, but also if he is a complete player he must finish... a centre probably only one of those. So what I am saying is that players will gravitate to the position which suits the game. Escare has pace. He is small, but he is not a scrum half. But to be a bit repetitive .... abolishing the scrum offers options to bring the stand off and the three quarters quickly into the game. If you want to tidy the scrum up, turn it into a line of scrimmage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Thinking that logically, with professionalism, we'd see scrums more like union - except without players trained to do so. From what I've seen, union scrums in the 70s/80s were relatively similar to league ones of that era (plus 4 players). Nowadays the players are much bigger and heavier. They weren’t similar at all. Union was a pushfest and RL was as loose as it’s ever been. I would also argue that players are not ‘much’ no bigger today than yesteryear, although I accept ‘much’ might be a couple of kilos. I couldn’t see isolated practice in binding, body positioning and pushing being easy to introduce. I wouldn’t like it to revert to the boring carry on that RU has but with a quick feed it shouldn’t be a mess of a scrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: A scrum half or hooker can and needs to scoot, can have quick acceleration and can distribute. Can organise. A prop/"middle" can probably do one of those but not all. In the same way a centre can play stand off or wing if pressed, but neither of those can be a specialist centre. A winger needs pace, but also if he is a complete player he must finish... a centre probably only one of those. So what I am saying is that players will gravitate to the position which suits the game. Escare has pace. He is small, but he is not a scrum half. But to be a bit repetitive .... abolishing the scrum offers options to bring the stand off and the three quarters quickly into the game. If you want to tidy the scrum up, turn it into a line of scrimmage. Totally agree that players gravitate to where they feel suits them most, which leaves room for small players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: If you don't know what to do/properly bind with over a tonne of force compressing on eachother its runs a risk of not ending well. It doesn't have to just be the current League scrums or the Union alternative. There is a sensible middle ground. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Just now, Lowdesert said: They weren’t similar at all. Union was a pushfest and RL was as loose as it’s ever been. I would also argue that players are not ‘much’ no bigger today than yesteryear, although I accept ‘much’ might be a couple of kilos. I couldn’t see isolated practice in binding, body positioning and pushing being easy to introduce. I wouldn’t like it to revert to the boring carry on that RU has but with a quick feed it shouldn’t be a mess of a scrum. Fair enough on what scrums were like, not been alive long enough to see a large sample. What I have seen has been relatively similar. The scrum naturally would move towards RU's style if it became a competitive element. Get lower, bind better, push together and you'll beat a side that doesn't do that easily every single time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dunbar said: It doesn't have to just be the current League scrums or the Union alternative. There is a sensible middle ground. I doubt it. As I posted above any competitive element now has tactics to increase the competitive advantage in it. That middle ground is closest in sevens maybe? But thats 3 players and is as pointless as a league scrum too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Seriously, you think asking the packs to bind properly, put the ball in the middle and push/hook for the ball is going to be life threatening? Yes. Have you heard of crusher tackles? Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: I doubt it. As I posted above any competitive element now has tactics to increase the competitive advantage in it. That middle ground is closest in sevens maybe? But thats 3 players and is as pointless as a league scrum too. Yes, but you have to look at the scrum within the wider context of the game. In Union, possession is paramount and the battle for possession is key element which is why a team will carry players in the team who specialises in scrummaging. In League, the laws of the game allow for a team to regain and use possession at the end of the opposition set (unless they win a restart). As such, front row forwards have a much more valuable role to the team in general play. I very much doubt that a competitive League scrum would evolve to that of Union as its value to the team is simply not the same. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, Dunbar said: It doesn't have to just be the current League scrums or the Union alternative. There is a sensible middle ground. Who are you expecting to be sensible? As you have said you played in the pack in the 80's - would you describe the players of that era, or any other for that matter, as "sensible"? Players and coaches will exploit any opportunities that the rules provide. Amongst other things the rule makers must attempt to ensure that they take into account the risks to players at all times. Harking back to players and practices of yore isn't helpful in this respect. Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said: Who are you expecting to be sensible? As you have said you played in the pack in the 80's - would you describe the players of that era, or any other for that matter, as "sensible"? Players and coaches will exploit any opportunities that the rules provide. Amongst other things the rule makers must attempt to ensure that they take into account the risks to players at all times. Harking back to players and practices of yore isn't helpful in this respect. Sorry, but I find the argument that we cannot try and introduce a more competitive scrum into Rugby League because it will inevitably become like the Union scrum and therefore be potentially life threatening to the players utterly bizarre. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Rugby Union scrums bind better because of first, the 'lock" (8), it's in the name, second because the flank forwards bind in the scrum tight. But ... and I think this is not off topic ... props in RU have become heavily specialised, so much so that they are very dangerous. This leaves lots of opportunity for non or 'failed' RU props to play RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 39 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Yes, but you have to look at the scrum within the wider context of the game. In Union, possession is paramount and the battle for possession is key element which is why a team will carry players in the team who specialises in scrummaging. In League, the laws of the game allow for a team to regain and use possession at the end of the opposition set (unless they win a restart). As such, front row forwards have a much more valuable role to the team in general play. I very much doubt that a competitive League scrum would evolve to that of Union as its value to the team is simply not the same. I still think players will train to be better at scrummaging which promotes players getting better at scrummaging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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