England to PLAY in 2022??

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

Wouldn't it better for the lower tier games to be in the heartlands

I think we've seen that the heartlands, particularly outside of Leeds, have been an unhappy hunting ground for the RFL when it comes to lower international sides (vs England). To an extent that is because the M62 corridor is well catered for regarding top class RL already.

In my mind at least there is more benefit to using internationals to expand the game and the measures of success change with that. 15k in Bristol for England v Wales or 10k in Cardiff arms park is better than 4k in Widnes or Wakefield. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

England need to be playing regularly, but it needs to be against the teams above and France. 

Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Italy, Serbia, Greece also need to be playing regularly, but against each other, not England. 

Super League and NRL players need to be facing each other in internationals not part timer players and amateurs. 

Those nations, with regular high profile competitions, will increase in competitiveness as they do for World Cups. Players will be more inclined to play for them outside of world cups and stick with that nation as they have for the pacific nations.

They don't all have to play England every year. The RLEF's European cup/nations league proposal actually means only the best would be in the same comp as England. 

I agree, right now England benefits playing the Pacific nations far more from an intensity perspective. However, due to them being on the other side of the world, chronically underfunded and having Australia and NZ on their doorstep you can see why them touring England is unlikely at best in the short term. In short, they don't need us as much as we need them. We in England risk being left behind unless we can raise the level of our "local" opposition. 

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

However, due to them being on the other side of the world, chronically underfunded

Given their high profile surely Fiji, Tonga or Samoa playing a three Test series against England and maybe two tests vs. France on the way home would pay for itself. With the success of P.N.G. last year,   possibility of pulling a crowd as well?

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Given their high profile surely Fiji, Tonga or Samoa playing a three Test series against England and maybe two tests vs. France on the way home would pay for itself. With the success of P.N.G. last year,   possibility of pulling a crowd as well?

You say that but there's just not the money in international league atm. I think they would pull crowds certainly, but these leagues don't have the finances to support pro tours outside of World Cups atm.

[The Rocket]

15 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You say that but there's just not the money in international league atm. I think they would pull crowds certainly, but these leagues don't have the finances to support pro tours outside of World Cups atm.

I don`t know anything about the cost of running , say a three week tour , do all the gate receipts go to the home nation ? if so if you wanted decent competition would it pay to subsidize the costs of the touring team ? Even if the tour only broke even for both teams the intangible benefits  for both , you would think would be considerable.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I don`t know anything about the cost of running , say a three week tour , do all the gate receipts go to the home nation ? if so if you wanted decent competition would it pay to subsidize the costs of the touring team ? Even if the tour only broke even for both teams the intangible benefits  for both , you would think would be considerable.

The kiwis come on tour here because the NZRL get a paycheck out of it afaik. The RFL are essentially the same in that regard when wanting to host teams. In a very risk averse environment with risk averse leadership the Pacific nations haven't got a look in (just as the European nations haven't either).

I agree it should be possible, but with the costs involved plus relative interest levels it makes more sense for the Pacific nations to look to Oz and NZ first.

[The Rocket]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The kiwis come on tour here because the NZRL get a paycheck out of it afaik. The RFL are essentially the same in that regard when wanting to host teams. In a very risk averse environment with risk averse leadership the Pacific nations haven't got a look in (just as the European nations haven't either).

I agree it should be possible, but with the costs involved plus relative interest levels it makes more sense for the Pacific nations to look to Oz and NZ first.

That`s a shame,  I`ve got out of bed early for the last 30 years to watch touring OZ teams great memories , Sculthorpe putting Carney away, Morley taking Kearns head off.  Tonga vs. England , I would get up for that too. Maybe after the WC and these countries can raise their profiles it may be possible.

[Damien]

40 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You say that but there's just not the money in international league atm. I think they would pull crowds certainly, but these leagues don't have the finances to support pro tours outside of World Cups atm.

Its a chicken and egg scenario though. Until someone is brave enough to underwrite such a tour to get things going then there will never be the finance. The trouble is the RFL obviously don't back themselves to sell an incoming tour and profit from it.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Damien said:

Its a chicken and egg scenario though. Until someone is brave enough to underwrite such a tour to get things going then there will never be the finance. The trouble is the RFL obviously don't back themselves to sell an incoming tour and profit from it.

100% agree with that. We have no idea of scale of a Tonga tour over here but have no ambition to pull it off. 

Hopefully this renewal of England competing in Europe will be the start of a more positive international outlook.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

100% agree with that. We have no idea of scale of a Tonga tour over here but have no ambition to pull it off. 

Hopefully this renewal of England competing in Europe will be the start of a more positive international outlook.

I honestly cannot see why a tour from Tonga wouldn't generate similar crowds to what we see from the Kiwis. I honestly think people are sick to death of playing the kiwis and people would be more inclined to go to something different, particularly after Tonga's exploits over recent years. People who may not fancy going to match against other lesser nations due to possibly thinking they would be one sided certainly aren't going to think that about Tonga. Costs and player payments are less for Tonga than the Kiwis too.

[The Rocket]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Its a chicken and egg scenario though. Until someone is brave enough to underwrite such a tour to get things going then there will never be the finance. The trouble is the RFL obviously don't back themselves to sell an incoming tour and profit from it.

Was typing this when your last post came through. I was about to write the advantage of some of these other countries is that they don`t play that grinding , strangle the life-out -of-you style the Aussies do and are more likely to be more entertaining.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Was typing this when your last post came through. I was about to write the advantage of some of these other countries is that they don`t play that grinding , strangle the life-out -of-you style the Aussies do and are more likely to be more entertaining.

Yes that is very true too. The more expansive play and exotic flavour and war dances from teams from the Pacific nations should be used as selling points in their own right. They should not be seen as lesser nations that aren't profitable because they are not as good or unsellable. What makes them different should be the selling point and I think people do indeed want to see variety and something different.

[Hela Wigmen]

12 minutes ago, Damien said:

I honestly cannot see why a tour from Tonga wouldn't generate similar crowds to what we see from the Kiwis. I honestly think people are sick to death of playing the kiwis and people would be more inclined to go to something different, particularly after Tonga's exploits over recent years. People who may not fancy going to match against other lesser nations due to possibly thinking they would be one sided certainly aren't going to think that about Tonga. Costs and player payments are less for Tonga than the Kiwis too.

Unless they played it at a ground that really had an appeal (eg Tottenham) then I wouldn’t bother going to England v NZ in 2022. However, I’d be more tempted if we played Tonga or Samoa. That’s just my personal thoughts on it, I know my Dad is the same. NZ have become tiresome. 

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, Damien said:

I honestly cannot see why a tour from Tonga wouldn't generate similar crowds to what we see from the Kiwis. I honestly think people are sick to death of playing the kiwis and people would be more inclined to go to something different, particularly after Tonga's exploits over recent years. People who may not fancy going to match against other lesser nations due to possibly thinking they would be one sided certainly aren't going to think that about Tonga. Costs and player payments are less for Tonga than the Kiwis too.

I think there's a lot in that. The RFL just don't capitalise on these things. Not Tonga after the World cup 2017, not a competitive Ireland after the same tournament. We've only played a very competitive Scotland once and they were leading for much of the game and they should be the easiest on our doorstep.

I'm not convinced the leadership at the RFL for the past decade has the confidence to sell games frankly.

[The Rocket]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think there's a lot in that. The RFL just don't capitalise on these things. Not Tonga after the World cup 2017, not a competitive Ireland after the same tournament. We've only played a very competitive Scotland once and they were leading for much of the game and they should be the easiest on our doorstep.

I'm not convinced the leadership at the RFL for the past decade has the confidence to sell games frankly.

That is just crazy.

[17 stone giant]

7 hours ago, Themusician_2 said:

Wouldn't it better for the lower tier games to be in the heartlands

I think there are arguments both ways. I just feel that there needs to be an attempt to attract new fans to the sport. If you only ever play England matches in the heartlands (apart from occasional matches in London), you're missing an opportunity to showcase the sport in new areas.

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Costs and player payments are less for Tonga than the Kiwis too.

I was reading about that successful English team in OZ in 1970 , They had the coach and the tour manager on that tour and due to antagonism between the two,  one got sacked mid-tour and they still won. Bennett took 14 staff on lasts year tour , is that really necessary, Bloody sight cheaper to bring a southern hemisphere team up there with two instead of fourteen staff.

[GeordieSaint]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think there's a lot in that. The RFL just don't capitalise on these things. Not Tonga after the World cup 2017, not a competitive Ireland after the same tournament. We've only played a very competitive Scotland once and they were leading for much of the game and they should be the easiest on our doorstep.

I'm not convinced the leadership at the RFL for the past decade has the confidence to sell games frankly.

20k+ turned up for the game in Coventry as well...

... it may have been a double header but the vast majority were there for England vs Scotland. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

20k+ turned up for the game in Coventry as well...

... it may have been a double header but the vast majority were there for England vs Scotland. 

I was there. I was freezing. But I enjoyed it very much.

Incidentally I met two Northampton union fans on the train to Bristol a year later and they had gone to that game and loved it. Couldn't believe the value for money and liked the game, couldn't understand how England weren't going to play Scotland in 2017 to prepare for the World cup.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

6 hours ago, The Rocket said:

I don`t know anything about the cost of running , say a three week tour , do all the gate receipts go to the home nation ? if so if you wanted decent competition would it pay to subsidize the costs of the touring team ? Even if the tour only broke even for both teams the intangible benefits  for both , you would think would be considerable.

I know Australia were paying their players $20,000 a test, New Zealand $5000 a test and Tonga $500 a test. Now they might not be happy touring for a month and only earning $500 a game, but you can assume a 3 game series against Tonga or Fiji would cost significantly less than against Australia or New Zealand. 

[wiganermike]

13 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

20k+ turned up for the game in Coventry as well...

... it may have been a double header but the vast majority were there for England vs Scotland. 

I was at the Coventry double header with my nephew. England v Scotland was the better of the two games. The attendance was a very good one in what was still fairly new territory and considering it was on Bonfire Night. The Scots also got their draw with NZ in that tournament so it is puzzling that it was never followed up on. 

[The Rocket]

18 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I know Australia were paying their players $20,000 a test, New Zealand $5000 a test and Tonga $500 a test. Now they might not be happy touring for a month and only earning $500 a game, but you can assume a 3 game series against Tonga or Fiji would cost significantly less than against Australia or New Zealand. 

Obviously $500 per Test is not enough, no matter how patriotic you are. Especially to travel half way round the world.

[The Rocket]

On 11/07/2020 at 21:04, Damien said:

Its a chicken and egg scenario though. Until someone is brave enough to underwrite such a tour to get things going then there will never be the finance. The trouble is the RFL obviously don't back themselves to sell an incoming tour and profit from it.

 

On 11/07/2020 at 20:21, Tommygilf said:

You say that but there's just not the money in international league atm. I think they would pull crowds certainly, but these leagues don't have the finances to support pro tours outside of World Cups atm.

How about a scenario  where RLF invited towns/cities around England to submit proposals with regards to hosting an International RL Team for one week leading up to a friday or saturday night Test Match. Now the successful candidate would be based on who could provide 1) accommodation for say 30 people(a touring party) which would have to have ready access to the necessary training facilities and a stadium of sufficient size to host a Test,  2) cost.  Now from my experience in OZ most councils bend over backwards to attract large scale events and this  competitive tension may be enough to drive the costs down .Of course the quality of the applicants is part of a successful bid. The town/city benefits from having an International Team(as Damien said of a 'exotic flavour') and the tourism and attention that will bring and an influx of tourists and associated spending . It may be enough to reduce the costs  significantly .

[Damien]

31 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Obviously $500 per Test is not enough, no matter how patriotic you are. Especially to travel half way round the world.

Players obviously get daily allowances on tour too. There is much more to international rugby and touring than just money anyhow.

[The Rocket]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Players obviously get daily allowances on tour too. There is much more to international rugby and touring than just money anyhow.

I hope that you do not consider me patronizing,  it just seems there is just not enough high level competition readily available at present and that is holding England back. All  that would be needed is an `ice-breaker` to show one of these smaller nations could tour successfully on and off the field. That may then open the the gates to all the potentially entertaining southern hemisphere teams.