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Harry Sunderland

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13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree. Not sure about the your idea bit though, I'm sure I posted it first¬†ūüėā. I'll let you off, great minds and all that.¬†

 

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I suggested something similar on page 1 so I'm throwing my hat in the ring¬†ūüėā

Sue me. 

I made it far better. 

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If names of memorials to honour people within RL are to be changed to reflect a more up-to-date person within the game, how long before the Brian Bevan statue at Warrington is replaced by someone from this era ?

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5 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If names of memorials to honour people within RL are to be changed to reflect a more up-to-date person within the game, how long before the Brian Bevan statue at Warrington is replaced by someone from this era ?

Has what Bevan did been superseded by anyone since at Warrington? No.

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5 hours ago, Moove said:

Oxford you need to try answering a simple question without being so sanctimonious. Just the link would have sufficed, thanks.

Moove you need to read around and not be so touchy old son.

 

3 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

This is an old chestnut that keeps coming up on this forum.

Calls for the trophy to be renamed seem to be based on a single very small extract from Geoffrey Moorhouse's history of the game.

The assertion was unsupported by any evidence.

Harry Sunderland was a prolific Rugby League journalist, both in Australia and the UK in the first half of the twentieth century.

If there were any examples of racism from anything he wrote, I suspect it would have been unearthed by now. But I haven't seen anything.

Harry may have been dead since the 1960s, but he does have descendants who are presumably still alive. In fact his son was a much more famous person in Australia and throughout the world than Harry was.

For the game to trash their name on the basis of a throwaway line in a book would utterly wrong in my view.

As for Roy Francis, I totally agree that as a separate issue he deserves to be commemorated.

I have suggested that each year there should be a Welsh Player of the Year who is awarded the Roy Francis Medal.

I think a look into a special permanent BAME exhibit at the George would be a good move as well, with a section on Fijians, Maoris etc etc.

I never thought Harry Sunderland was a Colston or Robert E Lee figure by the way but if true it's something that must be considered and discussed even on this forum.


 

 

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1 minute ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If names of memorials to honour people within RL are to be changed to reflect a more up-to-date person within the game, how long before the Brian Bevan statue at Warrington is replaced by someone from this era ?

Talk about grasping at straws. So now you are using the word memorial instead of award, like you have up to now, just to try and find some tenuous link to a statue.

I'm sure Warrington could build another statue, or several if they desire. They certainly don't need to get rid of one to do so. We can't have more than one of the match award.

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Just now, Damien said:

Talk about grasping at straws. So now you are using the word memorial instead of award, like you have up to now, just to try and find some tenuous link to a statue.

I'm sure Warrington could build another statue, or several if they desire. They certainly don't need to get rid of one to do so. We can't have more than one of the match award.

Trophy, statue, medal, etc ... those which have a person's name are all there to honour someone irrespective in what form they appear.

OK, how long until the Boston stand changes its name at Wigan ?

 

 

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20 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If names of memorials to honour people within RL are to be changed to reflect a more up-to-date person within the game, how long before the Brian Bevan statue at Warrington is replaced by someone from this era ?

We can build as many statues as we want. 

There is only one Cup Final Mom for example. That is the reason I'm talking about refreshing and rotating, not because Lance Todd isn't a worthy name or he has been bettered. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

We can build as many statues as we want. 

There is only one Cup Final Mom for example. That is the reason I'm talking about refreshing and rotating, not because Lance Todd isn't a worthy name or he has been bettered. 

So how long  would you give until the Mike Gregory lounge changes its name ?

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2 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Trophy, statue, medal, etc ... those which have a person's name are all there to honour someone irrespective in what form they appear.

OK, how long until the Boston stand changes its name at Wigan ?

 

 

But is it such an issue if it was changed? 

Things don't have to stay the same, and changing things aren't a slur on others 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

But is it such an issue if it was changed? 

Things don't have to stay the same, and changing things aren't a slur on others 

That's why I am asking how long ? Indeed, why give it that name initially if for someone so far in the past ?

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3 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Trophy, statue, medal, etc ... those which have a person's name are all there to honour someone irrespective in what form they appear.

OK, how long until the Boston stand changes its name at Wigan ?

 

 

If its changed its changed. I don't see why it should be set in stone.

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Just now, RL does what Sky says said:

So how long  would you give until the Mike Gregory lounge changes its name ?

Until people see fit to do so, if they ever do. 

If they ever cam up with an idea of regularly changing names of function suites yo celebrate the very many legends of the club's 130 year plus history I'd have no issues with it in the slightest. 

There was a Brian Bevan Stand at Wilderspool, but none at the HJ Stadium. It doesn't mean he has been erased from the history books. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Until people see fit to do so, if they ever do. 

If they ever cam up with an idea of regularly changing names of function suites yo celebrate the very many legends of the club's 130 year plus history I'd have no issues with it in the slightest. 

There was a Brian Bevan Stand at Wilderspool, but none at the HJ Stadium. It doesn't mean he has been erased from the history books. 

As with Damien, I do accept your view as I do with all those about the Todd and Sunderland trophies; it's just that I disagree with changing the latter two.

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The reasons for changing the names would have to have real substance to them.

This is not the same as proper recognition of our players and officials from different parts of our community.

Nor is it proper recognition of what the sport has been capable of when so much and so many around didn't seem so capable of anything like the same kind of actions.

The argument, it seems to me, that as players and officials pass out of living memory so their awards and trophies are supposed to disappear is as hollow as it sounds.

The WC and the Museum at the George are classic moments and events where we can recognise all of the above.

Edited by Oxford

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The reasons for changing the names would have to have real substance to them.

This is not the same as proper recognition of our players and officials from different parts of our community.

Nor is it proper recognition of what the sport has been capable of when so much and so many around didn't seem so capable of anything like the same kind of actions.

The argument, it seems to me, that as players and officials pass out of living memory so their awards and trophies are supposed to disappear is as hollow as it sounds.

The WC and the Museum at the George are classic moments and events where we can recognise all of the above.

I don't think it is about passing out of living memory, I'd support 3 new names all from the 1800s if a good case was made for them. 

But our 3 most high-profile player awards in the UK game are named after Lance Todd, Harry Sunderland and Steve Prescott. Out of the game's 125 year history how did we land there, and could we do things differently?

We don't need to be afraid of the answer being that yes we could position these awards differently. 

I understand why people wouldn't want it changed, but I'd be in favour of looking at it personally. 

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Change the name because it will honour someone else - fine. 
 

Change the name because of one unsubstantiated paragraph in a book, while seeking to impose 21st century thought on someone from the 1930s - no. 

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1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Change the name because it will honour someone else - fine. 
 

Change the name because of one unsubstantiated paragraph in a book, while seeking to impose 21st century thought on someone from the 1930s - no. 

Although racism and discrimination has never been acceptable and never will be, perhaps it is sensible to review who our awards and trophies are named after.

Edited by Mr Plow
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8 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

Although racism and discrimination has never been acceptable and never will be, perhaps it is sensible to review who our awards and trophies are named after.

Racism and discrimination have been acceptable in the past though, as they still are in many places in the world now. As much as I’m sure we’d like to change that, it can’t be denied. 

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Please keep this on topic and Rugby League related.

Political soap boxes are not appropriate to this section of the forum.

Thanks for your cooperation.


.

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7 hours ago, Bostik Bailey said:

Its not about tampering with history, it about moving on. Harry Sunderland is long gone, regardless of what his views were or were not, why not change the name to celebrate another aspect of RL.

You want to trash the reputation of a respected figure of the game purely on an unsupported paragraph in a 26 year book. Its tampering.

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25 minutes ago, bird said:

You want to trash the reputation of a respected figure of the game purely on an unsupported paragraph in a 26 year book. Its tampering.

I don't see it as trashing the reputation at all. The name means nothing to me, and little to virtually everyone else alive right now bar his descendants and regarding the MOTM award. 

I'm yet to see a really convincing case why Sunderland deserves a special remembrance in the grand final beyond anyone else?

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If Harry Sunderland's name is to be removed because of his "supposed" beliefs years ago then why not refuse to play Australia due to the country having had those same beliefs at that time ?

Yet not many will agree because it won't be "good for the game".  In fact, I wouldn't agree but I also don;t agree with removing his name from the trophy.

Black people in South Africa are now quite happy to support the Springboks despite the troubles of many years ago, so why do people over here still want to "take revenge" against someone who supposedly only acted in a way which was considered OK by most people at that time ?  How could he know that 70 years later what he was supposedly doing would be thought of as wrong even though at the time it generally wasn't considered as such ?

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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9 hours ago, Eddie said:

Racism and discrimination have been acceptable in the past though, as they still are in many places in the world now. As much as I’m sure we’d like to change that, it can’t be denied. 

It wasn’t though. There have always been people opposed to it. This is why the slave trade ended and we had the civil rights movement ect. No ones denying racism happened and is happening now

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