rlno1 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 I watched this video of Roy Francis on Youtube. I knew of Roy Francis years ago and what a giant in the game he was. For me this video is more a reflection of how league and union are treated differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 He had quite a career and ended up coaching at Norths. Champion of a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwis 13 6 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Roy Francis is a legend. The guy narrating that youtube video is trying to draft Rugby Leagues history into Rugby Union present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 44 minutes ago, kiwis 13 6 said: Roy Francis is a legend. The guy narrating that youtube video is trying to draft Rugby Leagues history into Rugby Union present. My thoughts exactly. Played one game of yawnion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Squidge Rugby is an excellent RU channel. I'm tempted to start a similar RL channel on Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man of Kent Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Squidge Rugby is an excellent RU channel. I'm tempted to start a similar RL channel on Youtube Go for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 9 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Squidge Rugby is an excellent RU channel I will have to take you word for that Tommy, but I will gladly view your Channel when it is up and running, let us know please. Albeit, I may not agree with all your views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I will have to take you word for that Tommy, but I will gladly view your Channel when it is up and running, let us know please. Albeit, I may not agree with all your views Haha I imagine it will get exciting in the comments section! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 9 hours ago, Tommygilf said: Squidge Rugby is an excellent RU channel. I'm tempted to start a similar RL channel on Youtube Would you be wearing a flat cap or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Damien said: Would you be wearing a flat cap or not? Flat caps will be welcome to be sent in by viewers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 17 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said: Roy Francis is a legend. The guy narrating that youtube video is trying to draft Rugby Leagues history into Rugby Union present. Amazing isn't it. Rugby League has never hidden or under-reported Roy Francis's achievements, but pre-ambling a video lauding them with modern union coverage is mind-boggling. The video completely fails to address why he hasn't got wider recognition, what happened during his time in union and what views of him were in union after he went north. Treating the two sports as one is, at worst, an attempt to graft Rugby League's successes to obscure rugby union's failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Some contemporary snippets about Roy Francis the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiganermike Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 50 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Some contemporary snippets about Roy Francis the player. I can't see anything in those three articles supporting the assertion made by early WIGAN rugby. One mentions that Francis had been put on the transfer list, his weight, height and age. One states that Barrow and their support were so happy with his debut performance that they were puzzled as to why Wigan were willing to part with him. The third is a letter signed Shareholder from someone disgruntled with aspects of the club's management under the new regime including not giving Francis adequate opportunity over others the correspondent favoured less and stadium management. None of those articles or views would be out of place in connection with the transfer of any player. Neither the colour of Francis' skin nor Harry Sunderland are mentioned at all. There is no mention in those articles of Francis' departure from Wigan being directly attributable to Sunderland. I am not saying evidence to back up such assertions does not exist but it certainly can't be found in those pieces posted alongside that tweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 50 minutes ago, wiganermike said: I can't see anything in those three articles supporting the assertion made by early WIGAN rugby. One mentions that Francis had been put on the transfer list, his weight, height and age. One states that Barrow and their support were so happy with his debut performance that they were puzzled as to why Wigan were willing to part with him. The third is a letter signed Shareholder from someone disgruntled with aspects of the club's management under the new regime including not giving Francis adequate opportunity over others the correspondent favoured less and stadium management. None of those articles or views would be out of place in connection with the transfer of any player. Neither the colour of Francis' skin nor Harry Sunderland are mentioned at all. There is no mention in those articles of Francis' departure from Wigan being directly attributable to Sunderland. I am not saying evidence to back up such assertions does not exist but it certainly can't be found in those pieces posted alongside that tweet. I posted this here just to add some rare contemporary flavour for the Roy Francis the player, couldn't remove the comments in the tweet itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiganermike Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 43 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: I posted this here just to add some rare contemporary flavour for the Roy Francis the player, couldn't remove the comments in the tweet itself. I appreciate that Tommy as we hadn't seen any contemporary sources. I'll leave my comments re the Harry Sunderland issue to the other thread. This thread was the first one I found your post in and due to the comments in the tweet I assumed you were relating it to that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, wiganermike said: I appreciate that Tommy as we hadn't seen any contemporary sources. I'll leave my comments re the Harry Sunderland issue to the other thread. This thread was the first one I found your post in and due to the comments in the tweet I assumed you were relating it to that issue. No worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 Tony Collins deals with Roy Francis and Harry Sunderland here: Roy Francis & the Harry Sunderland Trophy He also mentions, almost in passing, Francis's treatment whilst playing rugby union in the war, another good reason (of many) why the video posted by 'Squidge Rugby' should not have conflated the two sports as if they are one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigbyLuger Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 Caplan explained his reasoning here. Francis is obviously one of many stories which needs to be used to educate people about history, myself included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 12 hours ago, M j M said: Tony Collins deals with Roy Francis and Harry Sunderland here: Roy Francis & the Harry Sunderland Trophy He also mentions, almost in passing, Francis's treatment whilst playing rugby union in the war, another good reason (of many) why the video posted by 'Squidge Rugby' should not have conflated the two sports as if they are one. Having listened to that podcast, I do fear that it illustrates the fact that we tend to attribute many things now to racism that were not necessarily so. Tony refers to Roy playing for England during the war at Leicester and arriving at the gate and not being able to persuade the gateman that he was actually playing in the game for England. Tony assumes the gateman was racist in reacting this way. But I recall a radio interview given by Roy while he was still alive in which he said that the problem he encountered at Leicester was that he had a strong Welsh accent and the man at the gate didn't believe he was likely to have been selected for England. Of course the fact that he was a black Welshman may have made the gateman even more doubtful. But the fact is that we can't read the mind of someone all those years ago who was manning the gate at Leicester, just as we can't read Harry Sunderland's mind in 1939 in the absence of any other evidence. On the other hand, as I've said elsewhere, Sunderland must have written extensively about Rugby League in his career as a journalist and if there was any evidence of racism you would imagine someone would unearth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said: Having listened to that podcast, I do fear that it illustrates the fact that we tend to attribute many things now to racism that were not necessarily so. Tony refers to Roy playing for England during the war at Leicester and arriving at the gate and not being able to persuade the gateman that he was actually playing in the game for England. Tony assumes the gateman was racist in reacting this way. But I recall a radio interview given by Roy while he was still alive in which he said that the problem he encountered at Leicester was that he had a strong Welsh accent and the man at the gate didn't believe he was likely to have been selected for England. Of course the fact that he was a black Welshman may have made the gateman even more doubtful. But the fact is that we can't read the mind of someone all those years ago who was manning the gate at Leicester, just as we can't read Harry Sunderland's mind in 1939 in the absence of any other evidence. On the other hand, as I've said elsewhere, Sunderland must have written extensively about Rugby League in his career as a journalist and if there was any evidence of racism you would imagine someone would unearth it. So, in the first 60 seconds of this podcast it says that Roy Francis always believed that Harry Sunderland was responsible for transferring him to Barrow because of the colour of his skin. If we are to believe Francis and his account of the incident at Leicester then why are we not inclined to believe Francis when he says the above? Everyone keeps asking for contemporary evidence, why can't we just believe the man himself. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dunbar said: So, in the first 60 seconds of this podcast it says that Roy Francis always believed that Harry Sunderland was responsible for transferring him to Barrow because of the colour of his skin. If we are to believe Francis and his account of the incident at Leicester then why are we not inclined to believe Francis when he says the above? Everyone keeps asking for contemporary evidence, why can't we just believe the man himself. I'm not saying we should believe anything unequivocally when it's based on hearsay evidence. Roy's own impressions are now circumstantial, and may or may not be accurate in either case. Having said that, I do think that he should be recognised and I would be very happy to see a trophy named in his honour. I suggested a trophy for the Welsh Player of the Year, which any young Welshman should be proud to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiganermike Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: So, in the first 60 seconds of this podcast it says that Roy Francis always believed that Harry Sunderland was responsible for transferring him to Barrow because of the colour of his skin. If we are to believe Francis and his account of the incident at Leicester then why are we not inclined to believe Francis when he says the above? Everyone keeps asking for contemporary evidence, why can't we just believe the man himself. The article/book/interview in which he is said (by tertiary sources) to have addressed this to Robert Gate which Professor Collins alludes to would constitute a source that could be checked and attributed to Roy Francis himself. I looked at the programme notes for the podcast in the hope of finding a link to it but couldn't find one. Without checking that we only have other people, years after Francis' death saying that he said something to someone else (not them) years ago. That in itself is not evidence, the words of Francis in that conversation with Robert Gate would be evidence (or not) of him believing it to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlno1 Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 I read recently in a RL News programme from about 1970 that he allowed the North Sydney players to choose who they wanted as captain. This sort of player leadership groups are a thing of the modern era you hear about today. He was definitely a man way ahead of his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 7 hours ago, rlno1 said: I read recently in a RL News programme from about 1970 that he allowed the North Sydney players to choose who they wanted as captain. This sort of player leadership groups are a thing of the modern era you hear about today. He was definitely a man way ahead of his time. He basically invented modern coaching techniques (or at least was one of the pioneers). He introduced meal plans, game plans and made sure the players' families were looked after. He also changed the attitude about positions, teaching forwards to pass the ball and backs to tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Vegas Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 On 18/07/2020 at 02:26, rlno1 said: I watched this video of Roy Francis on Youtube. I knew of Roy Francis years ago and what a giant in the game he was. For me this video is more a reflection of how league and union are treated differently. A good vid. I've always thought (in these days of erecting statues of "greats") that a more fitting tribute to Roy Francis is missing at Headingley. PS @rlno1, what did you mean in your last sentence? "Australia is a spoiled nation. They can expect my revenge. I'm not crazy when I say this, they are the crazy ones who give you hot sausages before the match when it's 40 degrees celsius outside." -------------------------- "Shifty Matty Petersen trying to get in there with a little five-fingered discount." Franklin Field, Philadelphia, 30/11/2004 -------------------------- FourthThird Second Best Statement Ever: Student Ram 02/06/2004 (Without a trace of irony): "... because, when you think about it, really... Wakefield is kind of the centre of the universe. You know, both ways, you've got..." Followed by a half a minute justification of this point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.