French teams in SL/Championship/L1

[Click]

2 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Selective there SKS. They’re well below most sides at Catalans. Catalans have 16 French players with squad numbers, just for comparison, Cas have 23 English born players with squad numbers. 

Quite selective there Hela - Catalans have 16 French players with squad numbers, how many came through their ranks in comparison to the 23 English born players that Cas have? I'd wager that some of those English born players didn't come through Cas's academy and came from other clubs. I don't think that could be said to a lot of those French players.

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, Click said:

Quite selective there Hela - Catalans have 16 French players with squad numbers, how many came through their ranks in comparison to the 23 English born players that Cas have? I'd wager that some of those English born players didn't come through Cas's academy and came from other clubs. I don't think that could be said to a lot of those French players.

Well, when you’ve got 2/37 clubs that are French then that’s obviously not going to be the case. 

[wiganermike]

53 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Why would having 25 Frenchmen in the squad be of little use?  If they were good enough it would be of huge benefit.  Having a high number of English players taken for internationals didn’t do Wigan any harm.

France select from Catalans, TO and other Elite teams as well as those playing in the UK.  Seeing internationals usually take place instead of a League game, that shouldn’t affect them so much at all.

I doubt many Elite teams could actually afford a team in League 1.  VSL were only getting a hundred or so watching so the cost to them (and the L1 teams) would be prohibitive.

it would be interesting to hear Barny and Audois views on this as they are very close to the game in the Region.  

I said having so many would be of little use to them if it caused them to not be able to compete and saw them relegated as a consequence. Staying at the level they currently play at and having a few Frenchmen seems to be preferable to Catalans and Toulouse than having a mainly French squad that struggles.

Complaints from Bernard Guasch particularly about the majority of their first team being taken for France games were often heard when they had a more predominantly French squad.

I didn't suggest Elite 1 teams funding League 1 teams. I suggested that any French clubs entering the RFL league system have a feeder club within the French domestic system to underpin their player development.

I didn't mention VSL, another poster did.

[Click]

Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

Well, when you’ve got 2/37 clubs that are French then that’s obviously not going to be the case. 

Exactly - English clubs have the ability to easily transfer young players and older players between each other, that doesn't mean they're doing better than Catalans are because they have more English players.

All of those French players came through Catalans, I'm not sure how seeing 16 players that have come through their ranks or developmental systems as a bad number.  Can you imagine what it may be if there were more French clubs in our competition?

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, Click said:

Exactly - English clubs have the ability to easily transfer young players and older players between each other, that doesn't mean they're doing better than Catalans are because they have more English players.

All of those French players came through Catalans, I'm not sure how seeing 16 players that have come through their ranks or developmental systems as a bad number.  Can you imagine what it may be if there were more French clubs in our competition?

Great. The league system we have still isn’t conducive to develop a player pathway for a number of clubs, Catalans included.

 

[Click]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Great. The league system we have still isn’t conducive to develop a player pathway for a number of clubs, Catalans included.

 

I mean sure, but that is a different topic all together. What we have has shown to develop players to a somewhat reasonable level. 

[Mumby Magic]

Id love it but in a way what is the end target? If we progressed to say 5, how would that affect the French game. We are having North American teams in with no end plan so to affect an established sport in one of our major playing countries wound be productive. 

[HarrogateKnights]

Without jumping on the negative bandwagon, when Brexit is finally done and lessons are learnt from a global pandemic that has the UK operating at different speeds of recovery never mind France.

Will looking to France to add another overseas trip be on the agenda. Realistically the Championship in a few years could have Toronto, New York, Ottawa, Toulouse and another French side along with London. It can't be far off when Chairman pull out of clubs due to their investments being spent on airfares and hotels, if they wanted that they would have bought a travel agent. With the majority of the current Championship players being part-time we aren't growing the game by constantly looking aboard to top up the league system with another team from here or there. I would rather have Gloucestershire All Golds back in the league least we are developing talent in England. 

[Robin Evans]

Oh I'd bloody love it....

Can someone start rugby xiii in the loire valley too???

Carcassonne.... Avignon would be fabulous.

Toulouse are virtually my second team as it is.....

[Robthegasman]

Having French teams in the Championship/Championship 1 or whatever it becomes may not be a bad call.

Or maybe a rugby league equivalent of a European Cup between clubs outside of Super League and some French teams.

But I think if nothing else it would do no harm if French clubs and English clubs outside of Super League were to at least talk and get their heads together and see if and where some cooperation is possible.

 And possibly it could save the game outside of Super League.

[nadera78]

People seriously discussing this idea, as if the sport would want more French clubs in this competition. They don't even want clubs from other parts of England. Parochial doesn't even begin to describe RL.

[Lowdesert]

12 hours ago, wiganermike said:

I said having so many would be of little use to them if it caused them to not be able to compete and saw them relegated as a consequence. Staying at the level they currently play at and having a few Frenchmen seems to be preferable to Catalans and Toulouse than having a mainly French squad that struggles.

Complaints from Bernard Guasch particularly about the majority of their first team being taken for France games were often heard when they had a more predominantly French squad.

I didn't suggest Elite 1 teams funding League 1 teams. I suggested that any French clubs entering the RFL league system have a feeder club within the French domestic system to underpin their player development.

I didn't mention VSL, another poster did.

I just don't understand the reasoning of your first paragraph mate.  Having a squad entirely French players, at a good enough standard,  with 2 or 3 high level imports would surely benefit them. Very rarely have they ever had a squad that was predominantly French in their history and having to release them for International duty is the problem they and TO have in being the only pro teams in France.

The players are not there to facilitate feeder clubs.  This is why I suggested Barny to comment as he is involved in the game with Les Sangliers. Your suggestion would weaken the Elite division as well.  

I think there aim now is to develop the supply of French players.  They have the right man coaching to facilitate that but still need support getting into schools, colleges and Universities.  If, over the next 5 years, Catalans and TO can get more players involved then numbers would increase naturally in the amateur game in the South.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Could Toulouse take Toronto’s Super League place for the rest of 2020?

If TWP can’t return in 2021 Toulouse could stay in Super League, with a different French side taking Toulouse’s Championship place.

[Eddie]

40 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Could Toulouse take Toronto’s Super League place for the rest of 2020?

If TWP can’t return in 2021 Toulouse could stay in Super League, with a different French side taking Toulouse’s Championship place.

If Toulouse don’t win the championship to go up what message does that give the other championship teams? 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

58 minutes ago, Eddie said:

If Toulouse don’t win the championship to go up what message does that give the other championship teams? 

Toulouse currently sit top of a Championship that has just been abandoned. 

[Eddie]

26 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toulouse currently sit top of a Championship that has just been abandoned. 

After only a handful of games. I’d love to see another French team in SL (a 14 team SL) but they need to get promoted imho. 

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Could Toulouse take Toronto’s Super League place for the rest of 2020?

If TWP can’t return in 2021 Toulouse could stay in Super League, with a different French side taking Toulouse’s Championship place.

If licencing came back, I would say that would be ideal, but right now, I don't think their squad would fare well in SL. 

This is in no way a detrimental slight but just the way I see it. 

I doubt TWP would have finished anywhere other than bottom if the Virus hadn't come along.   For new teams to win the Championship and then immediately step up to SL is a huge step and would be better with, say, 1 or 2 years grace before relegation kicked back in.  How that would work, restricting others from promotion, I do not know.

[Hela Wigmen]

12 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

If licencing came back, I would say that would be ideal, but right now, I don't think their squad would fare well in SL. 

This is in no way a detrimental slight but just the way I see it. 

I doubt TWP would have finished anywhere other than bottom if the Virus hadn't come along.   For new teams to win the Championship and then immediately step up to SL is a huge step and would be better with, say, 1 or 2 years grace before relegation kicked back in.  How that would work, restricting others from promotion, I do not know.

Or we, as a sport, move to a structure that doesn’t see any team benefit more than others when it comes to the transfer market. Players become available for contact for the following year from May/June time but if you were any of up to 5/6 clubs in Super League last year or any of up to four clubs in the Championship, how could you approach your own players (London Broncos as an example of this who lost 4/5 key players) to re-sign or how you could approach players for the following year when you weren’t sure what league they’d be playing in? It’s a flawed system. 

[Lowdesert]

3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Or we, as a sport, move to a structure that doesn’t see any team benefit more than others when it comes to the transfer market. Players become available for contact for the following year from May/June time but if you were any of up to 5/6 clubs in Super League last year or any of up to four clubs in the Championship, how could you approach your own players (London Broncos as an example of this who lost 4/5 key players) to re-sign or how you could approach players for the following year when you weren’t sure what league they’d be playing in? It’s a flawed system. 

The aim was to allow a promoted team time to budget and plan for the step up but in reality it isnt so easy.  Maybe its set up that way for a reason.

[wiganermike]

7 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

I just don't understand the reasoning of your first paragraph mate.  Having a squad entirely French players, at a good enough standard,  with 2 or 3 high level imports would surely benefit them. Very rarely have they ever had a squad that was predominantly French in their history and having to release them for International duty is the problem they and TO have in being the only pro teams in France.

The players are not there to facilitate feeder clubs.  This is why I suggested Barny to comment as he is involved in the game with Les Sangliers. Your suggestion would weaken the Elite division as well.  

I think there aim now is to develop the supply of French players.  They have the right man coaching to facilitate that but still need support getting into schools, colleges and Universities.  If, over the next 5 years, Catalans and TO can get more players involved then numbers would increase naturally in the amateur game in the South.

The key point with regard to them favouring non-French over French when trying to raise the competitiveness of their squad is whether those Frenchmen are as you put it 'at a good enough standard'. There aren't enough French players right now of good enough quality for Catalans to fill their squad with them alone and be able to be competitive. They don't fully achieve that even with imports to raise the overall standard of their squad. They face the same issue as the English clubs do when recruiting, given the option of a poorer standard native or a higher standard import, they will opt for the import so as to avoid the risk of relegation and improve competitiveness with the better teams. As the French are not of the same standard as Aussie/Kiwi/English options they don't when stocking the squad choose to take a player simply because he is French and risk making the squad poorer overall.

I don't deny that as the only pro French clubs they will have the better French players and thus lose them to the international squad, it's true. If they only hold 6 though rather than 10 of the French national team in their squad they are more resilient to this happening. Bernard Guasch has in the past been vocal about this as due to being the only fully pro club in France his club were dis-proportionally more affected (in his opinion) than other SL clubs. Thus more of his players came back knackered after the off season than at other clubs. As he has previously complained publicly about it I would suggest his feelings about it would affect his recruitment policy.

Catalans and Toulouse do operate feeder clubs in the French system to underpin their development of players. I was only suggesting that if other clubs came to play over here it would be a sensible already established method to follow. Taking Catalans (UTC as were) and Toulouse out weakened the French Elite system too but they didn't let that bother them when applying for entry to the RFL leagues.

[Robin Evans]

5 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Toulouse currently sit top of a Championship that has just been abandoned. 

Having played a game more than other undefeated sides

[kev p]

perhaps put Elite 1 on par with League 1 with promotion to the Championship could improve the standard. maybe play offs between Elite 1 & league 1 for promotion (eg top 4 from each div play off for 2 promotion places.. teams from other european countries should be encouraged to come in at league 1 level (hopefully with their own division made up from 6/7 countries. 

[Getmefood]

On 20/07/2020 at 22:41, Eddie said:

Would you like to see any more French teams join Catalans and Toulouse in our league system, and if so who? 
 

I’d love to see it, to give more professional pathways to French players, as long as it wasn’t to the detriment of Elite 1. 
 

In all honesty France should be focusing on developing the teams in their Elite Competitions. Catalans and Toulouse can stay in SL until the time is ready for a French Pro Rugby league competition.

[kiwis 13 6]

On 22/07/2020 at 03:12, kev p said:

perhaps put Elite 1 on par with League 1 with promotion to the Championship could improve the standard. maybe play offs between Elite 1 & league 1 for promotion (eg top 4 from each div play off for 2 promotion places.. teams from other european countries should be encouraged to come in at league 1 level (hopefully with their own division made up from 6/7 countries. 

Yeah I think French Elite is at the top end of the table already better than UK Championship 1.  I would like to see French Elite one Improved a bit to be on the same level as the Championship. A french TV deal that funds and guarantees at least 2 French sides in the Super League. Promotion relegation for french Super league sides would then be between Super League and French Elite.

[Damien]

4 hours ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

Yeah I think French Elite is at the top end of the table already better than UK Championship 1.  I would like to see French Elite one Improved a bit to be on the same level as the Championship. A french TV deal that funds and guarantees at least 2 French sides in the Super League. Promotion relegation for french Super league sides would then be between Super League and French Elite.

I think a lot of us would like to see something like that.