Griff Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Oi! I thought I'd come up with an amazing and unique response there. Two minds with but a single thought. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 I tend to try and look at these things on a case by case basis rather than perpetually live in one camp or the other. In this case, I think I am happy with someone suggesting that names like Fa'asuamaleaui are difficult to spell. Because they are. To me anyway. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: They do play for Chelsea Your point is very well made. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 Oh Super League's return on Sunday can't come soon enough! The prolonged off season has driven us to this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapologetic pedant Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 11 hours ago, dboy said: Mata'utia is not Mat-ow-tia. It's Matta-U-Tia. Stanley "Jean" is Stanley Genny. 3 hours ago, Eddie said: New Zealanders are surrounded with Maori and other South Pacific Islander names from birth, at school, work etc - so of course they’re familiar with them and can pronounce them. Strangely in the UK we’re not, so of course it’s going to be more difficult. I don`t if dboy is a New Zealander who grew up surrounded by Maori and Islander names, but I`m not. Nonetheless I also contrived to know that Mata`utia was being mangled on BBC commentaries. One hour`s research would be enough for RL commentators to dramatically improve. Failing that, just spending a little time listening to NZ commentators ought to suffice. Aren`t they supposed to be journalists? Isn`t research supposed to be part of what journalists do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 22 minutes ago, Chris22 said: Oh Super League's return on Sunday can't come soon enough! The prolonged off season has driven us to this thread! We’ve done very well filling in the void I reckon ... rugby lookalikes , double barrelled name teams , all sorts . I think we should be proud of our capacity to think up topics to talk about ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh1 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 Jiffy can’t even pronounce ‘Salford’ correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Griff said: No - but the implication that it's all Johnny Foreigner's fault is. The implication was that a rising number of foreign players made pronouncing player difficult more of a challenge. It is. Foreign names are usually more difficult to pronounce as they often speak a different language and with different inflections. That isn't racist. No one is saying it's a negative, or that they are somehow wrong for coming over because it makes it more challenging. No one is saying they are less a player or not welcome because of it. No one is saying it's better that we have nice and easy names to pronounce in good ol' Blighty (in fact, I'd say people are arguing there are still very difficult names to pronounce correctly over here, like Brough). So I don't accept the conditions that you think it's racist because no one has suggested them. I think you've found something in nothing. Now it sometime said, "Get these stupid foreigners with their stupid names that I can't say out of OUR league" then you'd have a point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 38 minutes ago, johnh1 said: Jiffy can’t even pronounce ‘Salford’ correctly. Neither could Steve Ryder whenever he had to introduce a match from there. Lazy sod. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 The only negative I can see is that when I write a post to say how well I think someone has played, I have to use copy and paste more often than I used to have to do. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 7 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: So I don't accept the conditions that you think it's racist because no one has suggested them. I think you've found something in nothing. Thanks. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Griff said: It's ironic that Tuivasa-Sheck should be picked out as "difficult". All the letters are just pronounced in the order they come. If he'd picked out Whakarau or Naiqama, he might've had a case. English is probably hardest to deal with. Try Dave Cholmondeley. And Danny Brough. Is the ough bit pronounced as in a. Cough b. Brought c. Though d. Rough e. Thought f. Lough g. Thorough, or h. Bough ? Looks like you have convinced yourself that spelling and pronunciation in a non-native language can be tricky given the nuances of the language. And not in fact racist, just difficult. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Looks like you have convinced yourself that spelling and pronunciation in a non-native language can be tricky given the nuances of the language. And not in fact racist, just difficult. The opposite, really. English is harder to pronounce than most languages. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Looks like you have convinced yourself that spelling and pronunciation in a non-native language can be tricky given the nuances of the language. No one has said otherwise. But, like the people who make no attempt to get Llandudno right (despite it being breathtakingly easy), believing that the difficulty gives you an excuse to either not even try or just make only a vague effort (when your job is actually relaying people's names to the audience), is laziness at best and racism at worst. Neither is positive and neither reflects well on the game. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, gingerjon said: No one has said otherwise. But, like the people who make no attempt to get Llandudno right (despite it being breathtakingly easy), believing that the difficulty gives you an excuse to either not even try or just make only a vague effort (when your job is actually relaying people's names to the audience), is laziness at best and racism at worst. Neither is positive and neither reflects well on the game. Yes they have. Literally the 3rd post on this thread (and so the subsequent conversation) is someone saying that admitting that some Polynesian names are difficult to spell and pronounce is racist. Pointing out that the English language has nuances that are difficult to learn for non native speakers is not racist. And pointing out that some Polynesian names are difficult to pronounce and spell for non native speakers is also not racist. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dunbar said: [1]Yes they have. Literally the 3rd post on this thread (and so the subsequent conversation) is someone saying that admitting that some Polynesian names are difficult to spell and pronounce is racist. Pointing out that the English language has nuances that are difficult to learn for non native speakers is not racist. [2]And pointing out that some Polynesian names are difficult to pronounce and spell for non native speakers is also not racist. [1] Fair enough [2] The potential racism is in believing that this cannot be overcome, doesn't really need to be overcome, or that there is even an excuse for people whose job it is to commentate on names getting it wrong because foreign is hard. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, gingerjon said: The potential racism is in believing that this cannot be overcome, doesn't really need to be overcome, or that there is even an excuse for people whose job it is to commentate on names getting it wrong because foreign is hard. Agreed. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 18 minutes ago, gingerjon said: because foreign is hard. Bloody right . Two years on duolingo trying to learn Italian and it’s still like a foreign language to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, DavidM said: Bloody right . Two years on duolingo trying to learn Italian and it’s still like a foreign language to me When you say two years, how much of that did you actually spend learning Italian ? "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 27 minutes ago, gingerjon said: The potential racism is in believing that this cannot be overcome, doesn't really need to be overcome, or that there is even an excuse for people whose job it is to commentate on names getting it wrong because foreign is hard. The thread wasn't actually about commentators though, it was about Joe Public. If it's your job to say the names, then I agree that it's shoddy to keep getting it wrong, and casually racist to not even try to get it right - it's a "why should I bother attitude" to more challenging names in their job role. As a teacher, I get lots of challenging names. I ask if I'm pronouncing it correctly, and then make an effort (or an apology if I get it wrong again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiganermike Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Griff said: It's ironic that Tuivasa-Sheck should be picked out as "difficult". All the letters are just pronounced in the order they come. If he'd picked out Whakarau or Naiqama, he might've had a case. English is probably hardest to deal with. Try Dave Cholmondeley. And Danny Brough. Is the ough bit pronounced as in a. Cough b. Brought c. Though d. Rough e. Thought f. Lough g. Thorough, or h. Bough ? Featherstonehaugh is another example of an English surname which many (including English speakers) will get wrong due to the pronunciation bearing little resemblance to the spelling. Problems people can encounter are not just linked to names though. Due to the peculiarities with spelling and pronunciation and various phonic options for the same grouping of letters in different words in the English language it can be argued that a word spelled ghoti could be pronounced fish for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsy4HullFC Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 1 minute ago, wiganermike said: Featherstonehaugh is another example of an English surname which many (including English speakers) will get wrong due to the pronunciation bearing little resemblance to the spelling. Problems people can encounter are not just linked to names though. Due to the peculiarities with spelling and pronunciation and various phonic options for the same grouping of letters in different words in the English language it can be argued that a word spelled ghoti could be pronounced fish for example. I love using that example with the kids at school. Blows their minds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, wiganermike said: Featherstonehaugh is another example of an English surname which many (including English speakers) will get wrong due to the pronunciation bearing little resemblance to the spelling. Problems people can encounter are not just linked to names though. Due to the peculiarities with spelling and pronunciation and various phonic options for the same grouping of letters in different words in the English language it can be argued that a word spelled ghoti could be pronounced fish for example. In contrast, Llandudno is pronounced exactly as it is spelt. You just need to learn the Welsh alphabet. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, Griff said: When you say two years, how much of that did you actually spend learning Italian ? I’m on a 254 day streak now and before that I got on a 300 day streak . Three modules a day , about half an hour . I’m on level 5 now . I can say ‘ where is my penguin ‘ fluently , which I’m sure will be essential when I go to Rome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said: The thread wasn't actually about commentators though, it was about Joe Public. That's fair as well. People do pick up how to pronounce names from stadium announcers and commentators though. Last season's Hastings football team had quite a few obviously-not-traditional-British surnames and I don't think I heard anyone struggle once the names had been over the tannoy. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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